Mixed sex wards and trans women.

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I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

That transwomen weren't safe on male wards, so they should hide from the blokes in the female ward

No. I have said upthread that I was in my own private room. I explained how it made me feel more comfortable and it also both stopped me being stared at on the female ward - so it stopped the women on there feeling uncomfortable and me feeling uncomfortable.

I am more than happy to be in a private room. I feel it would stop me being something to be stared at (which would happen on a male ward) and also make women feel more comfortable if I wasn't there.

People have discussed safety - and that's why I asked about safety.

All I want if I am in hospital is not to feel uncomfortable and to make people feel uncomfortable. I just want to have my treatment without 'being noticed - and that's why I would love a private room. Just as others would, no doubt.

I don't think that saving one person's dignity by sacrificing others is a good or fair solution

But then other people can have their dignity saved by potentially sacrificing theres.

A transwomen who has transitioned could easily end up half naked exposing their vagina,in a male ward. Their dignity has been sacrificed. No man there would sympathise with them.

ChocChocPorridge

Exactly. And I also take issue over the same thing that's involved in the bathroom debate. It's a sense of entitlement. Because they feel like they are a woman, therefore they are entitled to occupy a woman's space. The sense of 'I am the same with you and we're all in this together', I would find off-putting.

It also does nothing to address those who trans because they're sexually motivated. Who cares what their testerone levels are?

There are many reasons to segregate based on sex, all interwoven - you can't try and prioritise them in order to dismantle each one.

Transwomen need their own space. Definitely. But if that's not to be had, their feelings don't trump women's rights to sexual segregation.

ego147 wrote - "A transwomen who has transitioned could easily end up half naked exposing their vagina,in a male ward. Their dignity has been sacrificed."

There could be situations where a tranwoman could lose dignity by being e.g. half-naked, but it will not be due to exposing a vagina. A transwoman does not have a vagina.

As usual the argument appears to be...transwomen are in danger from males. Women are in danger from males. So transwomen being safe comes above the need for women to be safe. As with most arguments of this sort, there is no 'fair' answer. somethings got to give. And as usual, it seems to be automatically assumed that women should be the ones to give way to make others more comfortable, whilst putting themselves into a bad position.

But then other people can have their dignity saved by potentially sacrificing theres

Isn't that their choice to make though - rather than having it forced on them by transwomen having a right to be bunked with the women?

There could be situations where a tranwoman could lose dignity by being e.g. half-naked, but it will not be due to exposing a vagina. A transwoman does not have a vagina

Well that's alright then. I am sure no man would get turned on when he catches a glimpse of the surgery that some transwomen have

And as usual, it seems to be automatically assumed that women should be the ones to give way to make others more comfortable, whilst putting themselves into a bad position

Where should that 80yr old transwoman go who transitioned 50 yrs ago?

Where should that 80yr old transwoman go who transitioned 50 yrs ago?

I have no idea, what do you suggest? If no private rooms are available?

Its unfair to either transwomen, or to women. As in all cases like this. There IS no easy answer as trans-rights and womens rights crossover.

Where should that 80yr old transwoman go who transitioned 50 yrs ago?

I'm tempted to write 'who cares?' ego because invoking some hypothetical elderly transwoman to bolster your argument just shows how weak it is.

Oleanna - I agree (posted somewhat similarly upthread)

Ego - re the dignity v violence thing - it's not one or the other. The former is the normal reason for concern; the latter is hopefully rare but if it occurs more serious. re what should happen if a trans person would ideally have a side room but there isn't one - I can't see how one rule can fit all, especially for those in the process of transition. The best solution may vary not only depending on the trans person but also who else is in the wards. Bloody difficult for the staff to make those decisions though.

There IS no easy answer as trans-rights and womens rights crossover

There is no easy answer. I can't imagine the men on a male ward being comfortable with an elderly transwoman on there - I am sure that there are men who would feel uncomfortable in that situation.

I'm tempted to write 'who cares?' ego because invoking some hypothetical elderly transwoman to bolster your argument just shows how weak it is

Actually - I was using olennas argument. And why is it hypothetical? There are going to be more elderly transwomen soon.

By the time there are more elderly transwomen, hopefully all the transactivists will have campaigned for separate spaces. Job done.

Actually thinking about it, I wouldn't really have any issues with fully transitioned transpeople going on the ward of their chosen sex. I understand others think differently though. The issue for me is this self identification lark. Or even 'gender change' certificates being used as a benchmark. As in this case, there would be a whole bunch of penises on the female wards...

I do see a huge difference between those who 'claim' to be trans, those who simply crossdress and those who actually have the surgery required to make their lives more bearable. I am still in the 'I do not believe its possible to be trans without suffering sex-dysphoria' camp personally. But this is a transphobic view to hold these days.

Whatever my personal views though, it is undeniable that womens rights and trans rights are not compatible with each other. And if its acceptable for transwomen to be separated from male people for safety/dignity reasons, then it should also be acceptable for females to be separated from males for the same reason. No easy answers. But the problem is, it is ALWAYS females who are expected to 'suffer the consequences' as it were...else be named bigots. This needs to be spoken about, properly. Without cries of 'transphobe' and conversations being shut down for raising any concerns. The whole trans-agenda is damaging for females, AND trans-people alike. Assuming said transpeople actually do suffer dysphoria...and aren't just perverts or attention seekers of course. Second group seems to have snuck in via the backdoor and attached themselves to those who do deserve sympathy and understanding.

hopefully all the transactivists will have campaigned for separate space

That would be great. Given the very few trans people who exist, we'd pretty much have our own rooms and space to ourselves in hospitals. We could have the trans ward.

I can't imagine the men on a male ward being comfortable with an elderly transwoman on there - I am sure that there are men who would feel uncomfortable in that situation.

Men uncomfortable, oh no, what shall we do. Oh lets just eliminate the mans discomfort and make women uncomfortable instead, who cares about them...

The time this WILL be discussed properly is when it starts to affect men. I await eagerly the many stories of transmen calling gay males transphobic and bigoted for refusing sex with a vagina.

With more and more people identifying as trans, you would think that instead of forcing women to roll over and give in, TAs would be pushing for separate safe spaces that mean noone is made to feel unsafe and such. Its the best time to do it, while 'trans' is on the rise surely...

That would be great. Given the very few trans people who exist, we'd pretty much have our own rooms and space to ourselves in hospitals. We could have the trans ward.

This is entirely possible though, and I am sure you agree, the best solution to everything. Transwomen would feel safer and have more dignity, women would be safer, and the men can go along with everything fine and dandy as always

I just do NOT understand the focus on getting women to give in instead of pressure to create safe spaces for everyone.

ego147 wrote - "I am sure no man would get turned on when he catches a glimpse of the surgery that some transwomen have "

In no way have I disputed that a man could get turned on by seeing the surgery that some transwomen have (and that it could be a bad thing to happen to a transwoman), but even how a man reacts to seeing a transwoman's body does not magically transform a tranwoman's surgically altered body part into a vagina.

I raised my objection to your post because your inappropriate appropriation of the word vagina to describe a transwoman's genitals should not go unchallenged.

I just do NOT understand the focus on getting women to give in instead of pressure to create safe spaces for everyone

What would safe spaces look like? Changing rooms for men, women, MTF and FTM?

Toilets for men, women, MTF and FTM?
Hospital wards for men, women, MTF and FTM?

I honestly don't think that would happen.

Thinking about it MtF trans medical staff might present more of an problem. Imagine, you're on the ward, a nurse needs to intermitly examine you the nurse is MtF trans. Where do you stand refusing this if not comfortable with it?

I raised my objection to your post because your inappropriate appropriation of the word vagina to describe a transwoman's genitals should not go unchallenged

But you accept that men would be turned on by the site of a transwoman's genitals and that would be 'a bad thing' (to quote your words) for a transwoman.

Changing rooms for men, women, MTF and FTM?

I don't think trans people would accept it anyway, if you ask me it's more about validation than anything else for them. The whole 'trans women ARE women' mantra proves that.

That's a point. What do they call a trans women's vagina? I bet it does have some medical/scientific name.

if you ask me it's more about validation than anything else for them

Personally I would feel uncomfortable getting changed in front of a group of men at the moment.

I would also feel uncomfortable getting changed in front of a group of women.

Luckily, the only time I have to ever get changed in a public area is in a place with cubicles. No validation here.