Mixed sex wards and trans women.

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I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

Male, female and neutral.

I am open to any other suggestions on how we can solve this without females being put at risk though?

Though all of this WAS fine already. Or according to the two transwomen I know anyway. Those who suffer dysphoria and want to 'change sex' or have taken steps towards that (both I know are post-everything) could use the facilities of whichever sex they were trying to be. Its only when this whole 'anyone who identifies as anything IS that' rubbish started that this became an issue.

Not sure how this used to be in hospitals and such though. But this was true of changing rooms, loos and such. Apparently.

What do they call a trans women's vagina? I bet it does have some medical/scientific name

A neovagina?

"What would safe spaces look like? "

That is something for you to figure out with other trans people and campaign for.

I can tell you what they don't look like: The female area.

Personally I would feel uncomfortable getting changed in front of a group of men at the moment.

I would also feel uncomfortable getting changed in front of a group of women.

Luckily, the only time I have to ever get changed in a public area is in a place with cubicles. No validation here.

Indeed. Most transsexual people just want to get on with their own lives and be happy and as comfortable as possible. Don't wish to cause a fuss or draw attention to themselves.. Its those who don't wish to change anything but wish to be 'treat as women' who are the problem. And are dragging genuine trans people down with them :S

Most men would not do an analysis of whether they thought a particular MTT had a low testosterone level. Men's willingness to pick a fight with another man is not the same as men's willingness to be violent to a woman. The risk of rape is similarly much different as straight men don't want to have sex with MTTs, surgery or otherwise.

Its only when this whole 'anyone who identifies as anything IS that' rubbish started that this became an issue.

Completely agree.

you accept that men would be turned on by the site of a transwoman's genitals

No I wouldn't say I accept this.

I may regret asking this

But if a trans woman has had her genitals 'adjusted' surely the vulva bit would look like a vulva

ego:
[transwomen are] weaker on average than men.
Do you have evidence for that or is it (yet another) of those things we are supposed to take on faith? As a 'trans woman' is just 'a male who identifies as a trans woman', and self identification is all that is (or will be) necessary under legislation and/or hospital/school/etc guidelines, are you saying that men become weaker when they identify as women?? Is it like getting girl fleas or something, the taint of lady-brain makes a man a delicate flower?

But it's ok, they do have a vagina but they were put on the male ward - where a bloke raped them
They dont have a vagina. Most of them have a regular penis, some of them have an inverted penis, some of them have a bit of colon fashioned into a sort of hole. Not a one of them has a vagina because a vagina isnt "a penis which identifies as a vagina" or "a cut up penis" or "a lack of penis" or "a piece of colon refashioned into a hole".

But it's ok, they do have a vagina but they were put on the male ward - where a bloke raped them

Nor will they become impregnated.

Datun said:
I'm tempted to write 'who cares?' ego because invoking some hypothetical elderly transwoman to bolster your argument just shows how weak it is.

Im fine with saying I dont care. Men who decide to label themselves transwomen are making a choice to do so. In a world which gave a shit about women and didnt prioritise fragile male feelings all the time, men would be expected to have both thought about the consequences of their decisions and to have to deal with those consequences, and one of the consequences of identifying as 'trans' would be that they would still have to share designated-male space with other men. Rather than being handed womens spaces or private rooms because they feel uncomfortable with some of the results of the decisions they made.

Vince

I have to admit, every time a transwoman says but what about me, that's my reaction too.

I'm all for a collaborative approach, resulting in the least harm to everyone, but the trans agenda directly harms women and we're supposed collude in it!

It never fails to surprise me, how transwomen maintain they are women, and signally fail,
every single time, to have even the slightest understanding of what everyone is saying.

I don't know the women on here, everybody is anonymous, but almost to a person, everyone is saying the same thing. Not because we've consulted with one another beforehand, but because of an undeniable shared experience of simply being women.

Than a man vehemently disagrees with everything we say, whilst simultaneously saying he is a woman. And can we sort it out please.

No doubt your post will be deleted Datun, so I'm reposting the point you made (and rewording the last paragraph), which I think is an important one:

I'm all for a collaborative approach, resulting in the least harm to everyone, but the trans agenda directly harms women and we're supposed collude in it!

It never fails to surprise me, how transwomen maintain they are women, and signally fail,
every single time, to have even the slightest understanding of what everyone is saying.

I don't know the women on here, everybody is anonymous, but almost to a person, everyone is saying the same thing. Not because we've consulted with one another beforehand, but because of an undeniable shared experience of simply being women.

Than a transwoman vehemently disagrees with everything we say, whilst simultaneously saying they are a woman.

Than a transwoman vehemently disagrees with everything we say, whilst simultaneously saying they are a woman

Can you point out where someone has vehemently disagreed with everything that has been said and said 'they are a woman?"

Yes, the posts from Ego (and it is a fitting name) are all about male entitlement. An absolutely prime example of it.

If Ego takes the side room in a women's ward then a woman may very well be sent to a mixed sex general ward in Ego's place, given that there are finite beds on wards. But that is fine because Ego doesn't want to share a ward with a man and that is much more important than an actual woman sharing with a man in the general ward.

Ego want to be a woman but wants to retain the male privilege that enables Ego to be treated better than women. That's the crux of it.

It never fails to surprise me, how transwomen maintain they are women, and signally fail,every single time, to have even the slightest understanding of what everyone is saying

As some people have pointed out, there are a lot of issues going on here and there is no easy solution that suits everyone.

Except for trans wards. Or private rooms. Which would be a good solution.

Given the low percentage of trans people in the population, sufficient provision of side rooms does seem like the best solution. Except in the case of specialist units dealing specifically with trans surgery, endocrinology or psychological issues (if such exist?) a trans ward in a general hospital would be unused most of the time I'd have thought.

Private rooms aren't a good solution, medically, unless you are going to inject a hell of a lot of cash into the NHS to improve staffing levels. Private rooms mean that people don't get seen. People not being seen means they deteriorate without being noticed. Sick patients tend to become quieter. Side rooms are not ideal for sick patients. They are used for infectious patients out of necessity, but it's not ideal.

Yes, the posts from Ego (and it is a fitting name) are all about male entitlement

I was listening to a Radio 4 programme yesterday about the social media bubble. How we are all engrossed in our own little world, how we only listen to certain views, have our own own views reinforced etc. How this has caused polarisation.

A suggestion was to step out of the bubble, engage and listen / be exposed to different POV.

You can see why people prefer to stay in their bubble at times. Engaging with people with a different POV can be challenging and it's easy to see why some people don't bother..

Yep, its irritating, presumptious, a whole heap of male entitlement and sealioning going on.

This, for example:
I'm guessing it's their fault if someone sexually assaults them because they should have fought them off?

1. is there any evidence that males who identify as trans are more likely to be sexually assaulted than males who dont identify as trans?
2. ego here tries to make the possibility of male sexual violence against other males somehow the responsibility of women, by appropriating women's own experience of being blamed for the male violence we actually experience.

Im not responsible for male violence. Im also not responsible for providing a safe space for some men away from male violence.

Why are men never responsible for themselves? Women are targetted for blame following male violence because we either a) did 'femininity' in some way thereby making ourselves vulnerable to predation by masculinity or b) refused 'femininity' in some way thereby making ourselves vulnerable to correction by masculinity. We cant win either way.

Men arent generally coerced or forced towards femininity therefore arent a target for predation or punishment based on how well (or not) they conform to it. They can CHOOSE to 'present' as feminine if they like, they can also choose not to. They need to understand that a consequence of presenting as feminine may be that other men predate on or punish them. I have a particular lack of sympathy tbh because this system of GENDER harms ALL women EVERYWHERE to greater and lesser degrees and men who choose to adopt a lady-identity are reinforcing that system. If they gave a single shit about real life women theyd be fighting gender, not reinforcing it, and reinforcing misogynist ideas like the one that a vagina is a hole or a lack of a penis!

Presumably a transwoman's strength post-transition is related to their strength pre-transition? My DH is very big and very strong - I don't believe that any hormonal cocktail would make him weaker than the average man, and you'd have to amputate a limb or two to give the average woman (or even a very strong woman) any chance of being physically stronger than him.

I do care about the hypothetical elderly transwoman I mentioned earlier, actually. I don't think that it is fair of society to say to her that she may never ever access any female space. I do think it is fair for society to set the bar for entry to that space pretty high (and self-identification falls well short).

Caitlin Jenner is 'an elderly trans woman'.

I must admit, the idea that a transwoman on a ward is at risk of being sexually assaulted does sound highly unlikely to me. At the very least, a lot less likely than a woman being assaulted on a ward that admits men. I could be wrong, but I've never seen it reported - unlike assault of women in hospitals.

Ego

"A suggestion was to step out of the bubble, engage and listen / be exposed to different POV".

Excellent news.

So when do you intend to start to step out of your bubble?

Caitlin Jenner, I believe, still has a fully intact penis. So she can go on the male ward (in my world, not the world we live in)

Choc - maybe that's because the number of identified transwomen is currently small?