Mixed sex wards and trans women.

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I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

I'm interested in this loss of muscle - i've heard this said before - and yet, in women, we loss muscle once we lose our oestrogen post menopause.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4261347/

I would be interested to see studies around whether this muscle wastage in transwomen is actually the case, or whether it's just a perceived wastage due to the difficulty in putting new muscle on once you've lost most of your testosterone.

Why do you think women need single sex wards? I don't think that safety is the biggest issue as wards and hospitals are very open and easily accessible. I think it's more to do with dignity and privacy.

For men.

For biological women, they're essential, not "nice".

my prepubescent (but tall for his age) son*....

So, you think it should be done on genitals Ego? That's pretty weird.

And any simple biology book should be able to enlighten you about why denser skeletons and different bone structure more than makes up for the negligible reduction in muscle mass that taking synthetic hormones causes.

The effects of low testosterone

www.menshormonalhealth.com/low-testosterone-symptoms.html

And in transwomen, the testosterone levels go very low. I've certainly noticed a loss of strength.

Right, so it's not the oestrogen then - it's the low testosterone, which, even in a transwoman is higher than it is for any woman (who doesn't have a hormone disorder) - in other words, it's a red herring in this particular discussion. Transwomen are still stronger than women, no matter the hormones they are blocking/taking.

So, you think it should be done on genitals Ego? That's pretty weird.

So - where do you think transwomen should go? What would be your criteria?

Is it all transwomen regardless of how long they've transitioned for, regardless of surgery would go on the male ward no matter what?

Transwomen are still stronger than women, no matter the hormones they are blocking/taking

and weaker on average than men.

So that's ok - they should be able to defend themselves then? I'm guessing it's their fault if someone sexually assaults them because they should have fought them off? But it's ok, they do have a vagina but they were put on the male ward - where a bloke raped them?

' I don't think that safety is the biggest issue as wards and hospitals are very open and easily accessible. I think it's more to do with dignity and privacy.'

I suppose it depends how you define safety - groping and being spied on happens in comparably public, accessible places (public loos, shop changing rooms - personally i have been groped in a reclining seat on a North Sea ferry, spied on in a shop changing room, flashed at in a bus shelter) - is that a safety issue or a privacy and dignity issue?

Personally I would like to see compromises on this matter - a transwoman with breasts is likely to have an utterly miserable time in a men's ward, but equally, I've heard too many accounts of transwomen behaving inappropriately in women's wards to think that a blanket rule based on self-identification is remotely reasonable.

And in transwomen, the testosterone levels go very low. I've certainly noticed a loss of strength

Lots of biological men experience "loss of strength" for lots of different reasons. None of which compare even slightly to the overall physical disadvantage of being female and the underlying vulnerability that causes, nor qualifies them to understand why biological women need single sex wards, as your "nice to have" comments so clearly demonstrate

Right, so it's not the oestrogen then - it's the low testosterone, which, even in a transwoman is higher than it is for any woman

Not really. Mine is at the bottom of the female reference range.

HTH

nor qualifies them to understand why biological women need single sex wards, as your "nice to have" comments so clearly demonstrate

Do you think a single sex ward keeps you safe?

I don't think it does. When I was in hospital, there was a male bay and a female bay. Anyone could walk in at anytime of day or night.

I think it enables privacy from people of the opposite sex at a time when you feel vulnerable.

So that's ok - they should be able to defend themselves then? I'm guessing it's their fault if someone sexually assaults them because they should have fought them off? But it's ok, they do have a vagina but they were put on the male ward - where a bloke raped them

No, that's not what I said, what I said was, that the women's ward is for females - there is a positive categorisation for good reason. Compromising that, changing that to 'females and vulnerable males' deserves some discussion with the people who's previously sex-segregated space is being opened up.

Given that transwomen are at risk on male wards, I support putting them elsewhere. I do not agree that that is the female ward.

I also don't agree that this is women's problem to solve actually. I don't see an issue with us defending our right to a space free from males, even those who have had surgery.

And if anything, the private room was less safe as it was just me in there.

No, that's not what I said, what I said was, that the women's ward is for females

It's what someone else said. They implied that transwomen should go on men's wards and they should be able to fight back if attacked.

Given that transwomen are at risk on male wards, I support putting them elsewhere. I do not agree that that is the female ward

Other people would disagree with you. They think transwomen should go on the male ward.

Not really. Mine is at the bottom of the female reference range

I stand corrected. Still a red herring when it comes to letting non-females in to female segregated spaces.

So let me get this straight ego

when you talk about tranwomen, you think they "need" to be on womens wards and it's absolutely vital that they're not on men's wards.

but when we're talking about biological women, they don't really "need" womens wards.. it's just "nice to have".. and "a little bit more dignified"

That pretty much sums it up I think!

I think transwomen belong on the male ward more than they belong on the female ward if pressed.

I don't think that male violence is women's problem to solve either - especially not by putting males in with females.

and I also agree that the reasons for the violence will be different - and I'm not convinced that the types of violence have equal likelihoods in hospital, and still even with all these things acknowledged, I don't see why that means males have any right to be on the female wards.

when you talk about tranwomen, you think they "need" to be on womens wards and it's absolutely vital that they're not on men's wards

Have you read my previous comments on here? I have said that transwoman and women are both at risk - and lack dignity on a mixed sex ward. If a woman is at risk, then so is a transwoman. If a woman lacks dignity, then so does a transwoman - especially one who has transitioned.

I think a transwoman who has transitioned, who has breasts and has had surgery would feel vulnerable and feel a lack of dignity if they were to be on a male ward.

I can also see that a woman would feel uncomfortable and vulnerable if someone who looked trans was on a female ward.

So....what would you do? You have a group of people who you need to treat with dignity and stop them feeling vulnerable. You could put them in a private room. That's fine.

What if there are no private rooms?

I've said it upthread, but I'll say it again (even if I am in a minority on this thread). I think that fully transitioned transmen and transwomen should be on the ward that corresponds to their new gender. I don't agree, for example, that the eighty year old transwoman who transitioned fifty years previously should be on a male only ward.

The key for me is that they are fully transitioned, not the "widening the bandwith of what it is to be a woman" "self-identified laydee" folk

I don't think that male violence is women's problem to solve either - especially not by putting males in with females

Do you think that violence is the main concern here?

Or is it more about dignity?

As with the toilets I think we look at this the wrong way, which makes it confusing. Why try and make everyone fit into either one or the other?

Hospitals should have lots of rooms, and hardly any wards imo. The doors should lock on the inside so only someone with a badge key can get in, but anyone inside can get out easily. It offers loads more privacy to people who need it for many many reasons other than gender/sex.

Having been in hospital on both a ward and in a room I can say the room felt much safer and whereas on the ward I felt exposed. To other women, their families visiting, the staff and so on. In a room I could actually sleep without worrying who was about. It would not worry me being on a mixed ward, because I know weirdos will try and get at you no matter where you are and being on a same sex ward does not protect you from that.

I also have a lot of sympathy for someone who identifies as one gender whilst being born of the other sex and then feeling they have no space at all, because they fear the same thing: aggressive, antisocial people. Like we all do. We're all human and should be given the same treatment. So hospitals should phase out wards and phase in rooms with physical separation and doors.

What I mean is we are trying to make people fit a physical building built by humans when we wanted everyone pidgeon holed into one sex or the other. But in reality, we are much more fluid with gender and even sex (you have xxy) so the physical building is wrong, and lots of people should not bend to the building but the building should be adjusted for the people going in it. Ergo we should have lots of rooms and very few wards

I think it can be about either really - but I thought your argument was both dignity, and safety? That transwomen weren't safe on male wards, so they should hide from the blokes in the female ward?

I don't think that saving one person's dignity by sacrificing others is a good or fair solution.

The only time I've been on a segregated ward was post c-section. I had everything out, lots of prodding/poking - not to mention pain and exhaustion from failed labour and resulting EMCS. Nurses commonly strode in and out. Now, to be fair, I had very little dignity left - you don't after having a baby - but I knew that any male that caused any issues could be ejected, because the only people who had a right to be there were the female patients and their babies. I knew that if the person opposite caught an eyeful, then she was in the same boat and sympathised.

I would feel different if it was a male patient, I would feel more embarrassed (as, I expect would he). The fact of the matter is that if someone is getting off on seeing half-naked, vulnerable women, it's going to be a male, no matter how they are dressed.