Mixed sex wards and trans women.

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I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

I've been asked to consent to a junior doctor practicing an internal

to think about historical practice. How did it happen? Well, the good thing about seeing a doctor for gynae issues is that they tend to just think of you as a problem to be fixed so there is nothing sexual involved in the examination. The bad thing is that they tend to just think of you as a problem to be fixed so forget that you are a person with boundaries that need consent to be breached

Datun as I recall there was a huge scandal at the time. However, given the circumstances, prosecuting anyone was impossible. How would anyone possibly prove if it happened to a specific patient and, if some junior doctors were present in theatre, which of them might have performed an examination. It wasn't even considered illegal at the time so prosecuting a bunch of well-meaning doctors 20 years later was in no one's interest.

Are women routinely asked if a junior doctor can have a quick practice?

I have been asked a fair few times if 'trainees' can do stuff to me in hospital. I always say yes as they have to learn on someone, plus for stuff such as blood tests they tend to be gentler than others. I had one internal done by a trainee when pregnant and he made it as comfortable as possible for me. None of the pain I got from the long term qualified people anyway. They care more about doing things right when training it seems

Prawn

Yes I know nothing can realistically be done. It's also what Olennas said - the men among them just wouldn't understand that although for them it is entirely a medical and learning issue, for a woman there is a boundry that is crossed.

Most women have smear tests, and if they have children, over the years umpteen people get a birds eye view. It doesn't make it any easier. There is, for me at any rate, always a sense of a deliberate disassociation in my head. (knowing that for them it's routine and they see hundreds every week). Nonetheless it is only women feel this.

Was there an equal scandal, I wonder, of junior doctors routinely practising prostate exams on an unconscious men?

Years ago, my mum told me that her friend's son who became a doctor begged his mother and sisters not to give their body for medical research because of the lack of respect so many of his fellow students treated female cadavers.

I can well believe women were routinely internally examined without their consent

JigglyTuff

Yes! It happened.

www.ourbodiesourselves.org/2012/09/conversations-we-shouldnt-still-be-having-pelvic-exams-under-anesthesia/

Actually, I have seen numerous references online and in conversation about the discomfort and embarrassment men experience during prostate exams. So it's not only women,Datun, though we get more of them, what with pregnancy and smears, as well as other gynae things.

It can be a positive thing. A friend of mine had a very tricky pregnancy and delivery at a teaching hospital. She agreed with having trainees around and told me that, having been desperately self-conscious all her life, she now felt immune. My fanny has been seen by so many strangers it might as well be playing the Royal Albert Hall, she said.

Prawn

Ha ! I do agree. Particularly during pregnancy and childbirth ones 'modesty' tends to shoot right up the wazoo (so to speak).

Do you think that a trans woman who has transitioned is safe in a male ward?

Pretty much yes. Certainly much safer than women would be with a man in the ward, in a side room or otherwise.

Yes, Ego, I agree with Flora. A transwoman is no more at risk on a male ward than many (most?) other men. I can never understand the argument that transwomen should be given the right to access woman only spaces on the grounds of safety. The same surely applies to, for example, effeminate gay men, but we don't see them demanding to use our showers.

I don't agree that a transwoman is not at any greater risk than an average man at all - I can quite see that they are vulnerable. That doesn't mean that they should automatically go on women's wards, of course, there are lots of vulnerable men who are placed on male wards.

It seems to me that violence against MTTs from men is quite specific and unlike VAW. Straight men don't want to have sex with MTTs and don't feel an entitlement to their bodies and MTTs are a more challenging target for men than women are. Male violence against MTTs seems to come more from punishment or dominating weaker men. That's a completely different type of violence than that faced by women and much less likely to occur in a hospital than MVAW.

Pretty much yes

Why?

Why is a transwoman - especially one who has transitioned, has breasts and has had surgery safe from men on a male ward -but a woman isn't?

What makes transwomen safe but puts women in danger?

That's a completely different type of violence than that faced by women and much less likely to occur in a hospital than MVAW

So you agree that transwomen do face violence from men - but you don't think it's likely to occur in a hospital.

What makes a hospital such a safe place then?

What makes transwomen safe but puts women in danger? biological men have on average a physical advantage over women that makes biological women extra vulnerable and in a weaker position.

A transwoman doesn't have any physical disadvantage even if they've transitioned, they still have the strength of a male skeleton!

A transwoman doesn't have any physical disadvantage even if they've transitioned, they still have the strength of a male skeleton

Umm. You do know what the lack of testosterone does to muscle mass and strength?

So it's ok to put a transwoman who has transitioned, had surgery in a place full of men because they can fight back?

I was under the impression that one of the main reasons for sex segregated wards - or bays as is the case - is not for safety but more for dignity and comfort. You can be in states of undress etc and so it's nice to have privacy.

How do you think a transwoman would feel being on a ward full of men? Do you think that is keeping them appropriate dignity?

Umm. You do know what the lack of testosterone does to muscle mass and strength?

since when is the skeleton made out of muscle, it takes SECONDS to tell a male skeleton from a female skeleton, that's how significant the differences are.

The trans community will hemorrhage allies if they continue to deny biological women's inherant vulnerability.

A common prostate drug drops men's testosterone, they're not suddenly as vulnerable as biological women because of that! FFS!

You can be in states of undress etc and so it's nice to have privacy.

"nice"?
biological women don't need single sex wards because it's "nice to have"!

it takes SECONDS to tell a male skeleton from a female skeleton, that's how significant the differences are

And that means what when it comes to physical strength? Testosterone affects muscle mass. Muscle strength drops off with a lack of testosterone.

A transwoman will lose her strength - so compared to the average men, they will be weaker.

So they are more vulnerable than the average man. But not as vulnerable as the average woman.

biological women don't need single sex wards because it's "nice to have

Why do you think women need single sex wards? I don't think that safety is the biggest issue as wards and hospitals are very open and easily accessible. I think it's more to do with dignity and privacy.

How do you think a transwoman would feel being on a ward full of men? Do you think that is keeping them appropriate dignity

But ego, surely you can also see that putting a male on a woman's ward compromises those women's dignity too? The women's ward is for females, not for anyone that doesn't feel safe on the men's ward - it has a positive purpose, for a clearly defined group, just like the male wards. It's not a catch-all for 'non-males'

Like I said there is no good solution in the absence of private rooms for all, but lumping everyone who's scared of men in with the women isn't a good solution for the women.

So they are more vulnerable than the average man. But not as vulnerable as the average woman.
There's more to physical advantage than muscles, and by your own admission there, biological women are at a physical disadvantage to transwomen

You don't make yourself safer by removing other people's safety! That's a fucked up way to go about things.

I'm a reasonably fit and healthy woman in my late 30s but my pre-pubescent (but tall for his age) is at least as strong as me, and very soon will be stronger than me.

When I was 9 or 10, my brother - who is two years my junior - went from being my equal in size and strength to being stronger than me.

It's not as simple as having lower testosterone levels = same strength as a woman.

But ego, surely you can also see that putting a male on a woman's ward compromises those women's dignity too

I agree - and that's why I discussed the private rooms. Then some posters discussed that transwomen belong in the male area no matter what - which is why I asked that question.

Especially when it comes to someone who has transitioned fully.

And this is right

Like I said there is no good solution in the absence of private rooms for all, but lumping everyone who's scared of men in with the women isn't a good solution for the women

There is no easy answer that suits everyone.