Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

[BeyondTheHarpy]

I know this has already been mentioned in the PL thread, but I thought it might be an idea to bring it to the attention of mners in a thread of its own.

After the PL debacle, there followed a thread in AIBU about toilet. On which this post appeared...
"I'm with you OP and I'm horrified by the transphobia on Mumsnet. I have done some work with Transmedia Watch who are trying to persuade MNHQ to treat transphobia as they would treat any other hate crime. I don't know what MNHQ have against the trans community or why they don't challenge the widespread belief that trans women are rapists in frocks who want to see fannies."

So, yeah, just letting you know that they are (allegedly) on the case with mnhq.

No argument with that. But what about women as a class and the problems we undoubtedly face, that men do not? What about the problems we face due to biological issues or perception based on that?

Venus well, I don't think either side has an inherent right to 'outrank' the other. , so ultimately I guess there is no 'right' answer to that question. So much of social progress is balancing out different people's rights, and I don't for a moment dismiss feminists' concerns as groundless or petty or transphobic because I don't think they are.

What I was trying to say is that I don't think it has to be a case of one side losing out and the other winning. For the reasons I've outlined, I would have thought feminism has much to gain with aligning itself with trans rights.

Manu indeed, that is exactly what it was meant to be!

Venus do you mean women's health issues? Cancers, childbirth, that kind of thing? In which case I do agree that some of the examples included up thread (classifying trans women in data on cervical cancer, for example) are unhelpful at best, dangerous at worst. I may be supportive of trans rights, but I wouldn't go that far. (I know some people do... But I don't speak for them.)

I don't think trans rights have much relevance to feminism personally. I don't believe centring the experience of men strengthens feminist thought. I think women's rights have a long way to go. It's ok to have things just for women, I think.

I also mean the perception of women as the reproductive class and all the discrimination around that.

And that's your illustration of gender melting away as a concept?

I am happy to involve transmen's experiences in feminism, as they are women. So I am not excluding transpeople.

What about in sport?

The rights of transwomen to compete in women's categories? Transwomen have an advantage of height, weight, higher muscle mass, lower body fat and higher aerobic capacity over biological women in the vast majority of sports.

And the rights of biological women to compete against other biological women?

Those rights are utterly in conflict. How can we reconcile those rights?

Datun, thank you for your explanation. Sorry for the slow response - I've been away from the keyboard.

Yep, I guess I am Spartacus too, in that case: I'd have no issue in treating a post-op transwoman as a woman, but I want to reserve the right to observe that people in that position still have male chromosomes, and that a person with a penis is still physically a man, even if he's wearing a dress.

Now back to catch up on the thread.

No Manu, it was my illustration of gender stereotypes currently existing as a straitjacket.

Venus refreshing to have a mention of trans men. They rarely get a look in on these threads. Clearly we're not about to change each other's minds, and I think we risk going round in circles, but it has been nice to have such a civilised discussion on the matter!

No argument from me Mx on that - gendered characteristics are bunkem.

Unfortunately, ignoring my genitals is more of a problem, especially for women, because that's where babies come from. I have special needs because if some male genitals get into my female genitals, then there can easily be a baby growing in my primary sexual organs - which no amount of non-gendered characteristics can change.

People will look at me, and know this, there's really no hiding it, so again, it doesn't matter which sports I play or what my hobbies are, my sex is still important.

Gender matters not a jot. Sex has rather important implications for women.

Sorry - conversation moved on - I agreed with one thing Mx said, not all

I think the reason transmen are not discussed so much is because most of the prominent transactivists are transwomen, and they often seem to have retained most of their male privilege and this shows in some of their demands. Transmen have not grown up with male privilege and do not in any sense challenge or threaten men in the same way women suffer from transactivism. They are women and they deserve a place in feminism.

You are my new crush venus

I think the reason transmen are not discussed so much is because most of the prominent transactivists are transwomen, and they often seem to have retained most of their male privilege and this shows in some of their demands. Transmen have not grown up with male privilege and do not in any sense challenge or threaten men in the same way women suffer from transactivism. They are women and they deserve a place in feminism.

This could be true, but the perception that I have is that, to a degree, the nutjob wing of the trans movement, is an ideological response specifically to feminism. Which would help explain where there is no trans man corollary. It's pretty fucking damning, isn't it, because it entails that this particular flavour of trans activist doesn't actually give a flying one about trans people, except as part of their stupid game.

'Who has acknowledged that gender is a spectrum? There's no psychological evidence of that at all.

Do you mean sex? Or gender?'

I mean gender, although sex isn't a spectrum either.

As an engineer, I find the usage of the word 'spectrum' for gender (or sex) ridiculous.

But this isn't the grammar section so perhaps I'll just head there with Oleana'sWimple and winge

(or perhaps not, given it seems I can't spell whinge)

easy to attach the word "phobia" to things these days.

FFS...why don't they focus their energies elsewhere?

and I agree with you ALL...why is it so important to antagonise females... aren't they meant to be "women" too.

I'm very happy that my thread is going so well :)

You know what though mx - I'd agree with your post-gender world idea a lot more if all trans people were saying they are non-binary. But they're not (mostly), they are claiming to be the other gender.
Not identifying with it but actually being it. And then not only does the word 'woman' become meaningless, but so does the word 'female'

Plus it's a bit first world-y which makes me a bit uncomfortable. It focuses on gender becoming obsolete in countries we are in, when there are plenty of countries where 'identifying' as the opposite sex will not improve females lives at all.

As an engineer, I find the usage of the word 'spectrum' for gender (or sex) ridiculous.

as a scientist, me too. Sex especially - F, M and various rare intersex. There is no continuum. Gender isn't a spectrum either - a woman might have a stereotypically 'masculine' job but a stereotypically feminine appearance or vv, to take an obvious example. We're all just a mish-mash of different characteristics some of which might be 'gendered' to a greater or lesser extent, either way, and some which aren't.

I am Too tired to write anything sensible so I will copy and paste from upthread just to add my voice.

"Yet another Spartacus. Thank you for standing strong, sisters. Female born women are entitled to speak their own truths and define themselves and their experiences. And have their own spaces and boundaries."

MNHQ - stand with us.

I was broadly sympathetic to Trans people and thought of myself as a liberal feminist who was pro-porn etc. until I started reading Mumsnet.

After reading Feminist Chat for a while I have completely changed my mind thanks to the excellent arguments from Datun et al. Florafox also helped.

Mumsnet is one of the only places on the internet where the majority view is sane - i.e. that 2 y.o children aren't "boys trapped in girls bodies" or vice versa if they like playing with dinosaurs, wearing dungarees and having short hair, or that letting people who just have to say "I identify as female" into refuges/changing rooms with vulnerable women isn't OK, that allowing Trans women to access cervical smears is barmy.Women are and will be affected by this.

I will admit to not being a biology expert, but your sex is written into every cell of your body. I'm having a hysterectomy next week to remove uterus and cervix. Won't make me a man. A man who chooses to have his penis removed isn't a woman.

On a personal level, I really don't care what anyone wears, what anyone calls themselves, who they sleep with and what job they do. Live and let live. Boys can play with dolls and wear make up. Girls can drive tractors and play football. All good.

But you can't start messing around with the definition of "woman" and "man". It gets really dangerous when very small children are being labelled as trans and are being encouraged by parents/activists/doctors to bind breasts or take hormones to block puberty. That's really scary stuff. And you can't speak out about it because a very vocal trans minority shout louder than everyone else and label you "transphobic".

"And why are there never any late FTT transitioners?"

Well, Chaz Bono actually transitioned quite late. And various other people who were formerly on the lesbian scene, such as Pat Califia (and their partner I believe?). Also Red Jordan Arobateau, who used to be a butch lesbian writer.

Could just be a very biased sample, but this type of trajectory seems to be very different from the late MTT, where you have numerous heterosexual men who transition after having a family/a successful career/sporting success etc etc.

I, for example, don't know of any cases of heterosexual females who transition after raising a family, straight marriage, having made their fortune in the business world...............

Autoandrophilia just doesn't seem to be as common as autogynephilia perhaps?