We will see a MTF transsexual US President before we see a female one.

[DragonHorse]

I'm entirely serious. My money's on Caitlyn Jenner.

Oops, bold and italics fail there

It matters not a jot whether or not you accept them as a woman. What matters is that they are biological males.

Birth certificates are unneeded - for the vast majority of adults it's obvious if they are male or female.

Past that, it's an honour system - and if a man can't be trusted to follow an honour system then I definitely don't want him to have the right to be in my changing room!

Lesbians have been called trans phobic because they don't want to sleep with someone who is MTF. Do you honestly think being accused of being trans phobic because you don't want to sleep with someone with a penis is okay?

What about gay men who don't want to sleep with someone who is FTM? Do people accuse them of being transphobic because they don't want to sleep with someone with a vagina?

Or what about straight men who don't want to sleep with someone who is MTF trans? Have they being accused of transphobia?

Or is it just women who are transphobic when they don't want to sleep with someone who is trans?

My money is on Michelle Obama...:)

Of course. And they will be hailed as the first 'female' president. Finally a step forward for females, proving sexism doesn't exist, and so on. Then after having a male in a dress there would be no reason to ever elect a 'woman' again.

'caring so much about what is between people 's legs is kinda a misogynist thing to do...'
What is between a person's legs is hardly unimportant, if its a penis that person is a man however they might feel. I agree with the op a transwoman is much more likely to get to the top than a mere female sadly.

Yellowrose87, did you know that the vast majority of transwomen retain their penises? Identifying as a woman might be what the transwoman desperately wants, but consider how it would pan out, if it was legalised across the board.

Vulnerable women and children everywhere would not be able to prevent someone, anyone, with a penis being in their space.

Yellowrose : GCSE biology ........>>>>>>> this way

I'm not saying transwomen are biological women, I just think what people were born with in nobody else's business. Please show me evidence for men dressing up as women just to be able to assault someone.

I don't want to spend my Saturday evening obsessing over who does or does not have a penis, but you lot have fun.

No, Yellowrose, I will not show you evidence. If you were not so damn lazy, you could find it yourself. Google exists. Or if you would just think for a moment, then you would realize that rapists lie about everything, so they would obviously also have no qualms about dressing up as women.

Rapists risk prison "just" to be able to rape women, and you think they would not engage in crossdressing, which is a fun activity that forms part of many stag parties? Oh please. You are so naive it hurts.

Most rapists are men, they look like men, dress like men, identify as men...
Please lets focus on male violence and not the trans bogeyman (woman)

The few trans people I have met want their own spaces and who can blame them...

Yellowrose87

No-one would ever dispute transwomen wanting their own spaces. The problem for women is their presence in women's spaces. How can you tell the difference between a genuine transwoman and a predator in a dress? If you can answer that, you will be the first person, ever.

If you have even the smallest question about what I mean, here's a link.

Copy it into YouTube, I'm not sure it works just with Google.

I honestly would be more than willing to engage with you after you've seen it.

Will watch that in a bit.

I don't know how else to get across that there is more to being trans than putting on a dress, quite a lot of them take hormones, have surgery etc so maybe that's one way to determine genuine need?

We should remember that transwomen are often victims of male violence too.

What if a FTM trans person was in a female only space, would that bother you, someone biologically female but dresses and acts male and considers themselves male?

Yellowrose87, These two sites contain many examples of males dressing in wigs, skirts etc and either claiming to be women, or using it as a disguise in order to enter women's spaces. As well as examples of males being arrested for indecent public behaviour, wearing said items.

outofmypantiesnow.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/when-is-90-not-substantially-all/

allisonslaw.wordpress.com

We should remember that transwomen are often victims of male violence too.

So what? Men in general are often victims of male violence. Doesn't mean they belong in women's spaces.

What if a FTM trans person was in a female only space, would that bother you, someone biologically female but dresses and acts male and considers themselves male?

As there is no way to "act male" except displaying male privilege and molesting women, yeah, of course it would bother me!
As studies have shown that the violence displayed by MtT AND FtT individuals is about on the same level as that of men, I do think they should use different facilities. (Which does, however, not change the fact that FtT individuals not have penises and thus cannot rape and impregnate women. Which means that they are considerably less of a danger than MtT.)

What doesn't bother me is women who wear trousers, have short hair and don't perform femininity using the bathroom/changing room/ shower appropriate for their sex.
That includes those who "identify" as agender and possibly also those who identify as transmen but haven't undergone any hormone treatment or surgery.

Sorry Yellow, but you're wrong, the vast, vast majority of them take no hormones and have no surgery. Things are very different these days and your information is out of date.

Yellow - there is more to being trans than putting on a dress, quite a lot of them take hormones, have surgery etc so maybe that's one way to determine genuine need?

Yes... and time was, transwomen would expect to have to have a GRC before being allowed to access womes's spaces, and most people were ok with that. But now we've moved - without women being properly consulted - to the idea of 'self identification'. A man can just decide he feels like a woman - doesnt even have to put on a dress or shave his beard - and demand that he's called 'she' and allowed anywhere 'she' wants.

It wouldn't bother me if a transman was in my space. They are women. They do not have the male pattern violence, and I wouldnt feel threatened. You may not believe that, but I can promise you it's true. The same argument goes with lesbians. They are women.

yellow, sex segregation is there for a reason. That reason hasn't changed.

Yellow - Of course theres no problems with lesbians in women's spaces, they're women. Not sure why you would even say that in this context.

As I said before, totally happy for transwomen to avoid male violence by having safe spaces - not happy for those safe spaces to be my safe spaces, thereby compromising them.

Transmen are always thrown into this as a decoy - if they are comfortable in men's toilets, why on earth aren't transwomen - who have male socialization and male size? Personally, I don't have any more of a problem with a transman in the toilet than any other woman - ie. as long as they are behaving themselves, no problem

But then, I've never had women (or transmen) rub up against me, feel me up in a crowd, rape me or over-share about their cock and sexual proclivities in day to day conversation - unlike men (all of the above) and the one transwoman (to be clear - over-sharing only - no rape or sexual assault) I knew.

I have no issues with transmen being in my space as they are biological women .

What exactly is 'acting male' and 'acting female'?

What exactly is 'acting male' and 'acting female'?

I assume that "acting male" must mean "locker room talk" and "grabbing women by the pussy".
Because really, there is no reason to assume that women would be "bothered" by a transman, i.e. an adult female human doing what a decent man would do in a changing room - i.e. walk in, change clothes, walk out.
Same with toilets. I wouldn't see whether a transman pees standing up, and if the toilet seat was full of piss afterwards, then that would by no means be a new thing to see in a public toilet.
Again, no idea why I would be "bothered", unless the transman in question has decided that Donald Trump is the greatest male role model ever.