I'd like help please. I'm uncomfortable with the many statements that the women who voted for Trump are poor and stupid

[HoneyDragon]

I can't articulate why. And need help to do so. I'm not going to beat around the bush when people say uneducated with faux sympathy, they do obviously mean stupid. Which isn't helping me either.

Even watching the dreaded Wright Stuff, I'm at edge with two priviliged White males effectively saying women voted that way because they are too weakened to do anything else. (Texan housewives being put forth as an example). I'm not liking the way the media is discussing the amount of women that voted for an odious openly sexist turd ....but for the life of me cannot verbalise it.

Xxxxx - sorry, should be clear, it's all horrific - just that I did not know that about Bill Clinton's speech (I already knew about the history of lynchings, and the disproportionate number of black prisoners, and the fact that they are used as slave labour - I think my dad pointed me at the statistic that 1/3 of the furniture in American homes is made by prison labour).

OneFlew why is conversation pivoted on "they are taking our jobs" rather than the UK has a productivity problem which we need to address?

Or the gig economy is taking away our workers rights and I feel vulnerable and exploited?

tbh I think Melania is probably quite happy for him to be 'grabbing women by the pussy' as at least then she won't have to sleep with him

I think the analogy of illegal immigrants works because there genuinely are companies who are employing people illegally so they can pay them slavers wages and treat them like dirt. I think this is appalling behaviour full stop and should be addressed.

I do not think that people employing legal migrants is anywhere near the same in terms of undermining wages etc unless companies are purposefully taking advantage of the vulnerability of these groups to offer a pittance. But this is just supply and demand in a marketplace with a very low minimum wage, so unless that is addressed then there is little that can change.

In both scenarios though, the fault lies with the company exploiting people and trying to keep wages down rather than with the workers themselves. It's a lot easier for people to punch down and blame new arrivals, than risk taking on their employers but I think a difficult conversation can bring that uncomfortable truth to light - even if afterwards they decide to suppress it and stick to the easier lie of it all being the fault of immigrants / women / young people / old people taking all the jobs.

Well that's my point TheXxxx - that's not how the conversation should be framed but when people shut down a conversation, rather than engaging with the people, that's how it ends up being discussed amongst the people who feel excluded.

My Dad's a builder and when Polish people started coming over he did see his wages drop because they were offering cheaper rates to the big building companies. He has a union background so he saw that this was the companies taking advantage (and, in fairness, trying to get half decent workers who didn't take the piss) but men he worked with saw this as a betrayal of British workers and directed their anger at the incomers rather than the boss because it was easier. It also meant that the companies could refuse to employ the constant layabouts who only ever did half a day's work but these men, rather than seeing it as their own damn fault for being lazy, saw it as them taking away their rightful job.

Even with people who do work hard though, increasing globalisation is having a big impact on traditional blue collar industries, there are fewer jobs and the ones that remain have poor working conditions and pay. We can either deny that this change has happened and pretend that it's just people being racist who want to talk about it, or we can acknowledge it and look for solutions that will help - such as banning zero hour contracts, or ensuring better employment protection.

Of course, like my Dad's old work colleagues, some people will remain racists who want something for nothing and I don't think there's anything you can do about that. But I think when people complain about not being heard, that can be part of the solution.

I agree with your reasoning Dodo about how companies are using immigration to suppress wages. It just seems to be a conversation that nobody is prepared to have. Much easier to blame the immigrants.

If intelligent women voted for Trump in full knowledge of the above and their knowledge that he used inflammatory language to whip up hate and anger then yes I would call them racist.

Also (and I promise I'll stop after this) the fault has got to lie with politicians who have chosen easy rhetoric over addressing issues for years.

I follow politics pretty closely, and the only time I've seen this issue addressed is when it's by populist idiots shouting racist solutions. As the opposition to that I think politicians need to accept responsibility for acknowledging the issue and talking about the real solutions, rather than either a) shutting down conversation or b) never actually talking about it in the first place.

I agree and I'm grateful to you for engaging because the whole issue has been tying my liberal brain in knots. There are no easy answers but the liberal/left axis needs to get a grip and start thinking some up.

Actually just looking at Glosswitch on the guest thread she has just said what I wanted to - only far more eloquently.

I had an interesting convo with an American friend - she hates Hillary with a passion, finds her totally abhorrent. I was all wide-eyed and suggested that maybe it would be a good thing for a woman to get elected to the highest position of power in the world. She was really offended that I had reduced such a decision to the candidate's sex, and although it would've been great to see HRC in the WH, she was right and I was naive. I think a lot of women felt the same - it wasn't that Hillary is a woman, it's that they do not trust her. My friend voted for Jill Stein in the end.

Yes, and alongside the "no easy answers" I think the sad truth is as TheXxxx has stated - that there are a lot of very racist people who were happy that someone has allowed them to be openly racist again.

I just think (hope) that there are also people who feel left behind alongside them - because if around 25% of the US voted for Trump because they were happy about racism then that's just too depressing to think about.

Racism appears to be far more significant than sexism, as shown by the size of his white vote compared to all minorities (even black men who Clinton "hadn't connected with"). Hilary actually, spoke up during the police shooting riots. (BLM debacle). Trump criticised and behaved like any other white racist would have or someone who wasn't willing to listen. I can see why they would want her as president to trump.

Quite frankly Bill was/is a huge racist and sexist man who should never have been allowed to be Governor let alone President. The incarceration rate of young black males is a disgrace.

The only saving grace of the policy is that now employers don't care if you have a criminal record. If they did care they would struggle to hire. There is also the mentality here of forgiveness. Once you are out of jail you have served your time and paid the price.

However, HC suffered because she didn't clearly lay out what her plans were on how to fix the problem with the Police in this country. I don't like Trumps plan but at least he laid it out.

I also really like Jill Stein. It says something when she asked people to vote for Trump over voting for her to avoid HC winning the election.

Supermum

I am 100% with you, Stein would've been my vote, mainly because she was so selfless at times!

Quencher - Did you just promote killing police officers? If you don't condemn the death of police officers on behalf of BLM then theres something wrong!

want2b yes Bill Clinton is an incredible racist he executed a black man with learning difficulties to improve his election chances.

How on earth are you reading promoting killing police officers in Quencher's post?

What I find astonishing is how this whole thread is equating education with understanding feminism or female rights. If every educated, well of person understood stood gender equality. Women would not be fighting to break the glass ceiling. The biggest fights at the top ranks are no where near close to what it should be.
So tell us more about these educated women because I always think there is a misunderstanding by equating the two. Just because someone has gone to university does not make them knowledgable in gender issues. It does not mean that some women don't switch off because it ruins their understanding of the world. Some people just don't care. They go to work, fight for equal pay but will never see that as fighting for equality.

Did you just promote killing police officers? If you don't condemn the death of police officers on behalf of BLM then
no! I haven't! That would be bonkers to any sane person. It was referring to the police shooting people, that's why in brackets I included BLM campaign. Not people shooting police.
In one of the cases where people asked for police video to show what happened at the scene, Hilary did say something about that and didn't condemn the people shot. A lot of black people felt like she would be more on their side when it came to issues regarding them compared to trump. If he went after Mexicans and Muslims, the most likely thing is black people won't be far down his list. Trump was borderline kkk for most black people unless you were Stacy dash or Amorisa.

I also believe that BLM campaigned damaged Hillary's chances of winning even though she never went on matches or associated herself with any of it. It was some of the celebrities she asked to endorse her that failed her at a time when there was a racial divide.
Michelle Obama lost her the vote too. It increased Hillary's vote among black people but showed how inadequate she was at responding to trump in the eyes of other white people when voting based on race. Things that should have ended trumps popularity, he was made to get away with. When she tried to tackle it, he would attack her with something personal.

Anything republican is what most black Americans wouldn't vote for and they rarely have. The heightened racial tensions has built up a lot within America in the last year. The only time middle America thinks they are in control is when republicans are in power. Making America great again, applies to white America including women. For black people or those at the receiving end of racism see the opposite because their lives have been getting better in general. If course you have people who feel worse off.

also, i do know that quite huge number of black men admired bill Clinton before Barack Obama came along, and probably still do to a degree.
Executing one black man come paired to what has happened in the past year, or what has been happening for a long time, people are more worried for the future.

I think a lot of women felt the same - it wasn't that Hillary is a woman, it's that they do not trust her. My friend voted for Jill Stein in the end.

That's understandable.
I didn't vote for Merkel, either. (Of course, German political system works differently, and the CDU is the traditionally more conservative and therefore misogynist party - there was no need to prevent someone worse from seizing power.)

Want2bSupermum Jill Stein asked people to vote for Trump? Really?
I am shocked.

Qencher

You'll have to take my apologies, however 'Hilary actually, spoke up during the police shooting riots. (BLM debacle)' sounds very much like you were talking about the BLM shooting of 2 police officers during BLM riots in the way you phrased it.

Plus BLM have been promoting and pushing for violence against police for a while now, so when you said Trump condemned it I assumed you were saying you didn't.

that there are still some very traditional, conservative communities in the US with values that seem very outdated to many British (and American, I guess) people

This may be true but to portray all these women as characters from the first series of True Detective is deeply insulting

I agree with the second comment. The first comment is exactly the sort of patronising, metropolitan comment which provided ammunition to Trump's argument that he was offering something different to the sort of people who get sneered at by the patronising, metropolitan elite.

I think people are forgetting another group of people those who are wealthy and are looking after their own interests he has promised to lower the highest rate of tax their vote was driven by greed something Trump knows all about

sadly I know some, deeply disappointed in them

Lass if you bothered to look at the voter breakdowns it was the middle/upper class voters to delivered trump the presidency. Clinton took the lion share of low income voters. Using coded language like 'sneering metropolitan elite' when you just mean anti fascist anti racist multi cultural folk (me) is very transparent.

Interesting thread.

I come from a staunchly conservative family, a family who has donated to the Conservative party of the country I grew up in and embodies conservative values.

My mother was an immigrant and single-parent who afforded me a fabulous childhood growing up in big houses, first-class airfares, boarding school etc. She bought and sold oil fields. She is a strong woman and identifies herself as a feminist.

We're not from the US but if we were, we would have voted for Trump.

We are neither poor nor stupid.

I read up-thread about the poor voting for Trump. The data I have heard suggests actually it's those on $50,000+, that got Trump over the line.

Yes, the rich and greedy are who we should be looking at, but it's so much more fun to punch down onto the poor and women, don't you think?