I'd like help please. I'm uncomfortable with the many statements that the women who voted for Trump are poor and stupid

[HoneyDragon]

I can't articulate why. And need help to do so. I'm not going to beat around the bush when people say uneducated with faux sympathy, they do obviously mean stupid. Which isn't helping me either.

Even watching the dreaded Wright Stuff, I'm at edge with two priviliged White males effectively saying women voted that way because they are too weakened to do anything else. (Texan housewives being put forth as an example). I'm not liking the way the media is discussing the amount of women that voted for an odious openly sexist turd ....but for the life of me cannot verbalise it.

I hold a graduate degree. I voted for Trump as I would never vote for a lying, cheating female to hold the most powerful office in the world. This woman may and should end up in jail. I give exactly two fucks what any thinks about my choice of candidate. Btw, I am a Jewish woman with none of the "awful" Christian values that a previous poster spoke to. HTH.

DH made the interesting point yesterday that he didn't think you could class huge swathes of America as being what we might call a typical Western nation.

Population density plays a big role I think. Nearly half of US states have a population density less than 25 people per sq km (compared to only three nations in the EU). You have to go back to the 18th century to find that level of population density in the UK.

Lots and lots of Americans live in low density rural and suburbans areas where they are just not exposed to modern urban ideas, except in the sense of "look at what those weird cityfolk believe".

Are you uncomfortable because it is a bit too glib and reduces so many individual women to some sort of deficient, cardboard cut out mass ?

Cos I am.

Having listened to them, not interacted, just listened, they plumped for Trump (with varying degrees of nose holding) because -

-They had concerns at the in roads being made in terms of curtailing free speech. A recent notable example that made waves in female Trump leaning circles recently was proposed (? think it was proposed, but may have gone through) legislation to enforce the use of preferred pronouns in Canada. Of all the issues I think this was the the one most referred to. There was a very real fear that NewSpeak had to be stamped out now, before it was too well established to be removed, and the price of not doing so was too high. Trump seemed, to them, to be the better option in that regard.

-They perceived Trump's mysogeny as small potatoes in the face of a femisim that does not line up with their own. Third wave does not appear to have resonated with them at all. Often when in verbal, online combat with educated left leaning women the feminism presented to them as Clinton's vision, did lean third wave, which I got the impression they felt that was the greater evil.

-The cry baby status of some higher profile activists on t'other side. There was a lot of pride in the concept of the strength of the female. And the constant exposure to the self described strong women of the t'other side's rather swift offence taking, flailing around in tears, and being vocal about who is more oppressed ..... all while smirking when a right wing leaning woman was assaulted ... did not strike them as attractive. At all.

-Facts over feelings. Most deffo a common battle cry. The other side in their view was too swift to jump on any convienent stat, or claim without holding it to the light of closer examination... and then making it all about how it made them feel. Examination by Trump-ish commentators often seemed to throw up flaws in stats/claims, and it made the feelings seem hollow and manipulative to them.

I can't cover it all. It's been a long 18 months of peering in over at the other side, and much has happened along the way. But those are the first ones that jump to mind. And I guess it is easier to write them off as stupid participants in their own oppression than consider that they gave the matter some thought, but placed a different weight of the shortcomings of both sides.

I came away with a large chunk of new found respect for them. And a realisation that perhaps it isn't some weird random coincidence that the right leaning seem to win at raising the number of women in the higher ranks before the left wing do. They weren't the somewhat thick, submissive, anti education, "urggg feminism is against god's teaching" bunch I had long assumed them to be.

Actually, lots of them were really bright, funny, warm and I think I'll keep following even though the election is over. Cos I might not agree with all their conclusions, but I found a lot of value in at least considering the points they made.

derxa it may have made your blood boil, but you don't actually say that it isn't true, or that a version of it isn't true, that there are still some very traditional, conservative communities in the US with values that seem very outdated to many British (and American, I guess) people. There are still women out there who think in a very 1950s way, that women shouldn't be aggressive (ie assertive) or encroach on what are perceived to be male spheres because that's putting the men out of a job.

And how do you know the same people voted? Maybe some didn't vote at all before but registered to vote for Trump, and vice versa. By no means did every citizen of voting age vote.

It is baffling that the same country can vote for both Obama and Trump within 4 years of each other but I guess that demonstrates how massive and diverse the US is.

We have a bunch of family/friends stateside. All voted Trump, except the wealthiest lawyers in Chicago (DH brother and wife). From what I can gather most military members and their spouses will have gone for Trump. That's a huge amount of people. Also my in laws went for Trump. Both educated at UCLA in the 60s, retired professionals. They dislike Trump as a person of course. But 8 years of Obama has infuriated them so they wanted the Republicans back. Makes me laugh when I see the "uneducated" comment. They are both remarkably hard working people and are now enjoying the retirement that they've worked so hard for. A close friend, Navy female enlisted, also just went for the Republican choice. I think it's been less to do with Trump as a person and more to do with getting the R's back in. As for my DH, he voted for Johnson but is happy Hillary didn't get in. He's Ivy league educated (Yale). Another thing I want to mention are Guns. I've not met a single American who wants tightened gun control. Even the smartest, most educated professionals. They love their guns. Republicans will ensure their 2nd ammendment is not touched. We have family in Houston, texas and they own god knows how many firearms (all locked up in a safe). I could never grasp why they want or need so many firearms. I've given up now. America is a long way from disarming. I think they saw Obamas reign as a threat to this. Just my observations.

"I would never vote for a lying, cheating female to hold the most powerful office in the world." Yet you voted for a lying, cheating male. Interesting.

I think religion plays a part. Many Americans are openly religious. Trump, along the way, suddenly adopted pro life policies. Hillary was pro choice. If your conscience wouldn't allow you to vote for a supporter of abortion, for instance, if you are Catholic, then you'd have to vote for Trump.
I also heard women on TV say they couldn't vote for a woman as President. I also think this is a religious view, as in women shouldn't be dominant over men. It's a conservative view and probably more widely held than we realise.
In some ways (female bishops), America is far ahead of the UK. I think if Trump tries to turn the clock back he's in for a fight.

They voted for Trump because he laid in his policy plans that he would make childcare fully deductible. I hope this is put through in his first week of office because so many women can't afford to work as they earn less after tax than childcare costs.

We pay $40k a year with one child in daycare and two kids at school. That's what ok quality childcare costs and then we pay about $10k in taxes on top of that as our helper is on the books. Our deduction is about $6k.

Jobs was also a big point. The rust belt is rusty because of globalization. These women also want jobs and opportunities for themselves and their families.

Finally medical insurance is insane. Trump addressed it with comprehensive plans on how he repeal all of Obamacare but the pre existing condition. Middle class families can't afford the premiums.

River

It's far more interestng that the same people who voted for Trump also voted for Obama!

Reports are coming out that registered voters for over 4 years had to have voted for Trump AND Obama due to numbers.

It is uncomfortable because one the one hand it seems women have voted against women's rights, in supporting a man who openly makes misogynist comments, on the other hand to dismiss them as unintelligent erodes their rights, women's rights, to autonomy which is anti-feminist in itself.

I think that is a very eloquent way of analysing my feelings.

Dexra I'm glad you watched it and felt the same way. It was sneering, dressed up in pretending to care.

And yes, a lot of men and women were voting for the party rather than the persona. But that only seems an acceptable move from the men, not the women.

It seems like the media want feminism to apologise or something?!

that there are still some very traditional, conservative communities in the US with values that seem very outdated to many British (and American, I guess) people This may be true but to portray all these women as characters from the first series of True Detective is deeply insulting.

Supermum

Well put, but policies aren't particulrly interesting to people, FB memes of racist sexist homophobes are more fun lol

Bathshua Spooner Lying and cheating you say? About what? I am genuinely baffled by this. Yes there are a couple of things which didn't really stand up (an account of being on an airport runway?) but really nothing to get your knickers in a twist about. And a fullfact investigation found that the things she says are easier to stand up as definite fact than the average politician.
So you voted for a man who lies and cheats. I mean, definitely lies and certainly treats. And grabs women by their genitals. And doesn't understand climate change. And says all Muslims are terrorists. And had a knowing lie as a major election pledge (I'm talking about the wall here).
Impeccable logic. And when you say should end up in jail - should Colin Powell also? Because he did the same thing using his private email too. And the FBI have been through Hillary's emails twice and can't find anything to indict her for so...

OP - to those saying that, you could point out the irony in them holding women to a higher standard than men. Which is actually exactly why Hillary lost. Had she behaved like Trump she would have been disgraced.

I have also never understood why women feel comfortable depending on a man for financial support. I get that you wouldn't get together with a man who you thought would run off but surely common sense would tell you the possibility cannot be completely dismissed?

Karlos, this lack of understanding is essentially the problem. You are viewing other people's lives as though they are contextually the same as your own.

I consider myself feminist but I am also a SAHP. Why should I trust my husband less than a potential employer? I made my decision for good reasons that apply to my own situation. However just as you could easily alienate feminist thinking SAHPs like me with your 'independent' rhetoric whole swathes of people are apparently alienated by what they consider 'elitist' politicians making decisions without taking their concerns seriously.

Don't get me wrong, I would not have voted for Trump. I am educated. I voted Remain. However I know lots of people who are far to easily tempted into a 'protest vote'.

Also how sexist is Trump? I heard the tape. I didn't like it but what I see is a man who has his daughter lined up to take over the family business.

That daughter runs her own successful business while also working for the family business. Her clothing business is great and caters to a huge gap in the market, clothing for the young working woman.

I can see why lots of women don't hold the awful comments against Trump.

"In 2012, 56 per cent of white people backed Romney - but Obama won the support of nine out of 10 nonwhite voters - and 19 out of 20 black people. "

"While there was a gender gap in presidential support in 2012 - with 53 per cent of men backing Romney and 57 per cent of women supporting Obama - the difference is more defined this year.|"

"In 2012, a majority of over-50s backed Romney for the presidency, while Obama got the support of three in five of those aged under 30."

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/us-election-how-age-race-and-education-are-deciding-factors-in-t/

Honey I didn't read your OP properly. You watched the same programme as me and it sent me into a rage. Matthew Wright and Dr David Bull telling us how women should think and vote. An American woman came on and told the show she had voted Trump and explained she had three academic degrees. Wright's response to this was that they must be some sort of Mickey Mouse degrees. Cue ribald laughter.

Part of the problem is the Democrats couldn't get their voters out.

There was a significant drop I believe in those who voted for Clinton compared to Obama.

They may not have wanted Trump, but they maybe didn't want Clinton either. So they stayed away.

I'very said this elsewhere, but voting for Trump for some was a vote against the 'dynasty' politics that is happening in US. It is partly I think this reason why Jeb Bush didn't do as well as many thought he would during nominations.

For some, voting Clinton would have been a 'vote for the same'.

It is also fairly rare for either party to hold the presidency for more than two terms, and even rarer for democrats than republicans.

"but voting for Trump for some was a vote against the 'dynasty' politics that is happening in US"

Yes, I think this played a part

I will also say there is a big gap between us culture and UK culture. Being a SAHM here is not highly valued. Most mothers work. It's just normal. We have far more women today in senior management compared to the UK. They are all approaching their 50s and we are about to see an explosion of women in leadership roles. Look at Kellyanne Conway. Four kids plus runs her own business. Around here the vast majority of mothers work, even if they break even during the early years. She is how Trump won.

Ok Supermum and Piza I don't want to get into another debate over Trump in that sense, so let s focused on two definite truths.

1. The media have openly denounced Trump as sexist and quoted and shown examples of anti female rhetoric from him.

2. The same media did are now handwringing and demanding to know why women voted for him.

And consequently concluding it's because they are stupid/poor/were told to by a man. They are not saying this or asking this in regard to any other sector of society.

Is it simply because by default it's easier to blame women?

I've been equally frustrated with the tone taken about the voting of certain segments for Trump - it's like people cannot get their heads around the fact that other people may see the exact same information and come to a different conclusion about the best choice. There's always the line that they "didn't understand" or "they were misled" and to me this much vaunted superiority of liberal voters has actually pushed people into voting for Trump.

I'm extremely socialist in my viewpoints but I've spoken to people who vote Republican and whilst I massively disagree with pretty much everything about Trump and what he stands for, I can't say that they've come to a mistaken conclusion by choosing to vote for him - their belief and value system is poles apart from mine so it seems natural that their votes would be too.

Piz the only person who keeps wittering on about FB memes and loling is you. With regard to voter numbers one anaysis I saw had 6 million voters apparently disappear when you compared 4 years ago to this year.

dexra I haven't actually seen either the Wright Stuff or True Detective so apologies for not understanding that point.

Want oh, I think men who love their DDs and involve them in their business can easily be as sexist as Trump. Easily. Because there's their womenfolk and then there's sluts for the taking. Not the same, in their pea brains. What Ivanka Trump really thinks of all this is anyone's guess, she's donated to HRC in the past, hasn't she?

dexra that's when I lost my shit at the tv as well.