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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

woman loses residency of son she was raising as daughter

785 replies

BombadierFritz · 21/10/2016 18:38

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3859618/You-caused-son-great-harm-insisting-raising-girl-Boy-seven-sent-live-father-mother-raised-daughter.html

hmmm. ok so its daily mail reporting but I am conflicted
perhaps good if child was being pushed into something he wasnt
but wtf with the boringly stereotypical insistance on the type of toys played with

OP posts:
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ArcheryAnnie · 24/10/2016 12:59

Mermaids is now cashing in with a £40-per-person "training day" at a school in London. to teach parents and staff how to suppress gender non-conformity and homosexuality in their children

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/gender-identity-training-day-tickets-26678507133

Seriously, they have no real expertise on this. This is so dangerous.

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe · 24/10/2016 13:05

My sons school went to training with stonewall who were brilliant and they began incorporating lessons about stereotyping, different families, respecting others etc into lessons after that.

The stereotyping lessons were particularly good and nobody was pushing any agenda.

Mermaids have no right to be doing this. They aren't experts at all. They may know their own children and what they want but the blind support and encouragement of everyone else who signs up is scary.

SpeckledyBanana · 24/10/2016 13:25

The JB article is very sensible.

IceBeing · 24/10/2016 13:52

Is it wrong to think that any parent that specifically genders their child, dresses them in a way that is only compatible with one stereotype, only introduces them to activities and hobbies pertaining to one stereotype, trains them in the mannerisms of one stereotype is also guilty of abuse?

I mean it covers the majority of parents...but I still think it is true.

user1477313365 · 24/10/2016 13:52

Hi - it's Helen, who wrote the Medium article linked to above. I've just joined now - and wanted to say I'm researching something bigger on this, so if anyone wants to talk they can message me here or on Twitter.

Datun · 24/10/2016 14:35

Hi Helen

Great article. I wondered if you have seen this petition on mumsnet. Pretty much sums up the consensus of those who are concerned.

www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp-a-review-of-how-laws-based-on-gender-identity-conflict-with-laws-based-on-biological-sex?recruiter=607651790&utm_source=share_for_starters&utm_medium=copyLink

helenlewis · 24/10/2016 14:50

Thanks Datun (have updated my username). I'm pretty down on internet petitions - they're easy to ignore if they are not directed at anyone. The person to lobby is Maria Miller, as chair of the W&E committee who made the recommendation about self-declaration; or Justine Greening, as minister for women and equalities.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 24/10/2016 15:01

Hi Helen,

What's your Twitter @? There's a lot of Helen Lewis'...

Datun · 24/10/2016 15:06

helenlewis

Yeah. A lot of us have written to our MPs etc but it feels like we're swimming uphill.

FloraFox · 24/10/2016 15:32

they apparently cannot accept someone can have a different emotional and psychological identity from their biological sex

What the fuck Julie Bindel? How does one have an emotional or psychological identity that is in any way the same or different from one's biological sex? Modern day progressive biological determinism.

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 24/10/2016 15:41

Helen
Great article and bloody well done you for writing it. It seems that the Left in particular have swallowed the Trans Ideology fully and no debate is permitted. We do need debate and we need this issue to have some media attention now.

Maria Miller has been somewhat less than accommodating re debate on this issue

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/maria-miller-says-only-hostility-to-transgender-report-came-from-women-purporting-to-be-feminists-a6830406.html

Plus, the recent transgender reports appears to have had representation from only pro trans groups. (Can someone link to the recent discuss re exclusion of gender critical feminists? Ta)

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 24/10/2016 17:20

they apparently cannot accept someone can have a different emotional and psychological identity from their biological sex

What the fuck Julie Bindel? How does one have an emotional or psychological identity that is in any way the same or different from one's biological sex? Modern day progressive biological determinism

I wondered about that too. I obviously can't speak for Bindel but is this an attempt to acknowledge real transgender people exist (e.g Miranda Yardley, Jen Bob, Aofie Hart, all of whom would I am sure be as horrified as everyone here by these cases) whilst at the same time pointing out the idiocy of these 2 cases?

FloraFox · 24/10/2016 17:52

I would guess so Lass. Very disappointing though. If she'd said different from what society expects based on their biological sex I could get on board with that although that describes pretty much everyone, not just trans people.

ArcheryAnnie · 24/10/2016 17:57

The piece on any potentially dissenting voices being deliberately excluded by Mermaids from a "Perspectives on healthcare for transgendered youth" conference, is in the second half of this article here:

www.transgendertrend.com/transgender-diagnosis-and-treatment-of-kids-is-not-up-for-debate/

It's interesting to me that Lloyds Banking sponsored the event. I wonder what they'd think about the attendance being fiddled like this?

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 24/10/2016 18:38

Good point, Archery. I'm a long standing Lloyds customer and I think I may write to the bank raising the issue. Far too many people have swallowed the line that transgender is a new sort of super oppressed super gay. I find that in conversation just bringing up statistics changes people's minds. 80% of transwomen have, and plan to keep, their penis never fails to cause surprise and consternation.

Starlight2345 · 24/10/2016 18:57

Reading the full judgement..The judge did absolutely the right thing. ..

LittlePaintBox · 25/10/2016 02:31

Mermaids seem to be pulling the same 'We're the only ones who can help the children' thing as Kids Company, and like Kids Company they seem to make parents reliant on them in dealing with their children.

They're claiming to have supported this mother for three years, but nobody seems to be calling them out on the poor job they've done, given the outcome. They are also misleading people about the nature of the judgement, the judge was not opposed to 'J' growing up as trans at all and was at pains to ascertain that the father was not going to impose a gender identity on him.

I'm really concerned that these people are setting themselves up as experts and trainers when they seem incapable of evaluating and critiquing what has gone on in the case of J.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 25/10/2016 08:50

Did you see my pp on the topic of the Mermaids CEO, Littlepaint? It's hard for me to post links atm as I'm on my phone, but if you do a search on Mermaids on the blog GenderTrender you'll find some very disturbing information on this woman. The claims are so damaging that they must be true. If they weren't Mermaids would've had the site down long since.

iPost · 25/10/2016 09:24

I'm really concerned that these people are setting themselves up as experts and trainers when they seem incapable of evaluating and critiquing what has gone on in the case of J.

Which I think is the root cause of their fear, that your concern will become the general public's concern. That cold, hard shard of truth that lives inside your head, even after years of believing your own hype... can be very jabby. Hence their misrepresentation of the judgment IMO, in an attempt to control the narrative regarding the motivations of the judge to arrive at the conclusions he did.

Judge perceived as massive, out of touch bigot

Mermaids teflon coated regarding any fall out from their actions in this case. Best case scenario, lemonade from lemons, they are essentially handed a springboard to get more money, attention, exposure and room to root themselves even deeper as the self appointed "most experty experts".

Judge perceived as even handed with justifiable, grave cause for concern -

Mermaids exposed to searching questions as per how they missed a child being abused right under their nose. And to what extent did they (albeit in a state of ignorance/blinkerdom) participate in, encourage and support the abuse.

And if they missed this case (with its evidently unstable mother, who was none too subtle and set off alarm bells left, right and centre in less blinkered circles) what price they have been able to spot and avoid encouraging less obvious cases of forced transing performed on small children.

There is also the question as to what steps they take/fail to take to ward off "identity building via the niche" in the parents they work with.

It's not exactly a secret that in niches like this some parents, who have long felt they would like to "be somebody", find they can be something "special", something "noble" and gain status via the niche.

No longer bog standard mum/dad, but instead parent crusader for X rights.

Where the moderate vocabulary of a boringly normal parental life gets replaced with more Hollywood, action packed terms. Like hate, oppression, "actual violence", colonisation & persecution. Some of them even find suddenly they get listened to (media, giving talks, microphone at marches). And they like it. It's so much more exciting, interesting and "feeling important" than life used to be.

The issue is that once a parent gets a taste for that, it can be hard to give it up. So the child is no longer at the centre and there isn't necessarily the same degree of parental flexibility about the child's feelings about X anymore. The kid can get stuck cos the parent (sub consciously or otherwise) fixes them in position cos they, the adult, don't want to give up what being an "X Parent" has offered them in terms of a freethinking / swashbuckling / hugely victimised identity.

It's certainly not all parents that are susceptible to the above. But by the same token it's not a vanishingly rare group that are. People who set themselves up as experts in any kind of "parenting niche" are aware of it (unless also suffering from the syndrome and unable to see it in others) and it behoves them to be on the look out for it, for the sake of the kids. IMO.

Puremince · 25/10/2016 09:32

Prawnofthepatriarchy, I'm interested in the statistic that 80% of transwomen have, and plan to keep, their penis. I know a transwoman who had her testicles removed, but kept her penis. She said that whereas removal of the testes is a vital part of transitioning, because it gets rid of the testosterone, removal of the penis isn't vital and moreover is a far riskier operation.

Of the 80% who keep their penis, how many have had their testes removed, do you know?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 25/10/2016 09:48

It's not just parents in my view. If you look at who is on staff at a range of trans support and education organisations (see for example GIRES and Gendered Intelligence) you tend to find that they are either people who are experts because they have 'transitioned', or have dubious qualifications in gender or cultural studies (dubious in the sense that these don't match their professional roles).

And look at the funders - the Lottery Commission is big, as well as Welcome trust, etc. Lots of big money being pumped into dubious organisations ...

MrsJamin · 25/10/2016 10:01

Any gender expert that isn't a clinical medical doctor is very likely to be transgender themselves or be a parent of one. Its so bloody biased. I feel so sorry for families wanting some help in navigating all this, and they end up at Mermaids where they are told they must be supportive otherwise their child will die. That's exactly their main advice. It is bullying.
Incidentally, apparently Mermaids received the £50k Pete burns got from celebrity big brother and that's how it got off the ground. Weird because Pete burns never called himself a woman or transwoman.

iPost · 25/10/2016 10:07

you tend to find that they are either people who are experts because they have 'transitioned', or have dubious qualifications in gender or cultural studies (dubious in the sense that these don't match their professional roles

Something which really deserves scrutiny. Particularly in light of all the yelling about "why weren't we and our experts called to give expert evidence ?" and the scorn poured on the lack of "real gender experts" referred to in the judgment.

The "be somebody" syndrome in parents is terribly hard to spot as an "expert", if you are suffering from it too. Or prefer not to see it because your agenda has coloured your view to the extent that your blinkers are damn near welded on.

Abused children don't stand a chance when the above is part and parcel of their "support".

YetAnotherSpartacus · 25/10/2016 10:21

The words I use to describe them are 'grooming' and 'cult'. I have not thought through it fully yet, but I think they are a little like a religious cult drumming up membership with the express desire of solidifying a following with them at the top.

tubasinthemoonlight · 25/10/2016 13:06

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