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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

woman loses residency of son she was raising as daughter

785 replies

BombadierFritz · 21/10/2016 18:38

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3859618/You-caused-son-great-harm-insisting-raising-girl-Boy-seven-sent-live-father-mother-raised-daughter.html

hmmm. ok so its daily mail reporting but I am conflicted
perhaps good if child was being pushed into something he wasnt
but wtf with the boringly stereotypical insistance on the type of toys played with

OP posts:
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Flugelpip · 21/10/2016 22:40

The judgement made me feel very emotional towards the end. There seems to be a genuine hope for the boy to find his own happy path in life wherever that might take him.

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Fedupofallthemud · 21/10/2016 22:41

Very interesting to read that this boy had a condition called hypospadias and required surgery to correct this when he was 4. He may well have had physical discomfort caused by this before and after surgery so you can imagine him saying he hated his penis etc. I wonder if mum somehow latched onto this (hypospadias would have been present from birth) in her assertion that he was a girl.

Having read the full judgement I agree the judge made entirely the right decision but how sad that his mum is still trying to convince him that he's a girl. It must be very confusing for him and there's certainly, to me, an element of abusive behaviour on the part of the mum, regardless of her intentions

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ageingrunner · 21/10/2016 22:42

I really hope the judge doesn't become the subject of transactivist aggression

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olives106 · 21/10/2016 22:44

Fedup: As I read it, it wasn't the boy himself but his half brother, called K in the judgement, who had the condition which required the minor surgery.

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OneEpisode · 21/10/2016 22:46

I don't think it was the child subject to the order that had the operation on his "flower" because of the hypospadia. Wasn't it a sibling... on the dad's side?

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MrsWooster · 21/10/2016 22:47

fed it was the half brother that had hypospadis, and I read it as saying that J was made aware of it by his mother's mention of K's right /upside down flower (Wtf?)

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MrsWooster · 21/10/2016 22:48

Check out the cross posting pedants club!

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Fedupofallthemud · 21/10/2016 22:49

Oh I must have mis read that then.
Doh!
Maybe planted a seed of an idea that penis =bad/sore
Or I could be totally wrong 😁

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OneEpisode · 21/10/2016 22:50

I couldn't bear to read the mail link but the actual judgement wasn't really about trans was it? It was about a safe place for the child to grow up.. and the dad had for instance created that safe place for the half sibling, albeit as NRP.

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OneEpisode · 21/10/2016 22:56

I want a special cross posting pedant badge, maybe in an upside down flower shape. I'm not typing the condition name again.
I don't know if the half siblings lived together.. and the operation was probably long forgotten by the time the younger child was aware? I think the judge's conclusion was the topic was raised by the mum?

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Paperplanesover · 21/10/2016 23:04

I've name changed for this as I think I know this family (unless there are two with strikingly similar backgrounds). Disclaimer that the family I know may not be the same one but ages and circumstances are the same.

I first met this family when the 'girl' was only 12 mths old. The mother was already dressing the child in 'girls' clothes, she had bows in her hair, shiny red patent shoes, very feminised.

I didn't actually realise the child was a boy until he was about 2 and another mother told me she had seen the mum changing his nappy. By this point the child was in 'girls' clothes, very long hair and had a unisex name.

Around 3/4 the mother was more open about the fact he was a boy but insisted he was distressed by this and wanted to be a girl, always chose girls clothes, toys etc. I knew this wasn't true as had seen the boy as a baby. She was reported quite a few times by different mothers/play group leaders but nothing ever happened.

The last time I saw them was maybe two years ago walking down the road and the boy was in a full dress, ribbons in his hair etc.

The mum was always quite a strange woman, very feminised but not in the usual way. Almost like a little girl. She wore long ribbons in her hair, pigtails and shiny patent shoes like a child.

If this is the same family then i'm glad something has been done as it was the most bizarre situation. The mum would never be drawn on where the father was other than to say they weren't together.

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Paperplanesover · 21/10/2016 23:07

Theres too many ribbons/shiny shoes in that post! But that was honestly the most striking thing about them. They dressed quite old fashioned but very girly girly, lots of plaits and ribbons in bows.

I had a thread on her years ago about them and then someone else came on who also knew the same family! It all got a bit strange.

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ageingrunner · 21/10/2016 23:12

If it's the same family it's disturbing that the mother has been supported in this odd behaviour by mermaids. You'd think they'd only support genuine trans children...

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BombadierFritz · 21/10/2016 23:12

and they are....?

OP posts:
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Paperplanesover · 21/10/2016 23:15

I remember her taking her child to see a psychologist privately and mermaids when people were making complaints to the HV/SS. I remember her talking about it.

I'm not sure how much I can say because obviously its all anonymous! But I did read it in the paper earlier and the 'girl' i know would be about 7/8 now.

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Paperplanesover · 21/10/2016 23:17

But I wonder if the boy really did think she was a girl. She had been dressed and referred to as a girl from a baby. Maybe he fooled mermaids, maybe the mum taught him to say he was distressed by his penis? who knows.

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ageingrunner · 21/10/2016 23:17

Exactly Bombadier! How do they tell the difference? And what's the difference anyway?

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ageingrunner · 21/10/2016 23:18

There's so much potential for abuse in this trans kids stuff

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Paperplanesover · 21/10/2016 23:23

I've just tried searching for my old thread but I can't find it. Possibly posted in chat.

It wasn't the only incident with the family at all, from what I remember the mum insisted on breastfeeding the boy/girl whilst sitting on the pavement with her breast fully out of her top. And i'm a hardcore extended breastfeeder so that isn't coming from a place of ignorance, it was all very strange. She was in her own little world.

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LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 21/10/2016 23:27

I think the judge's comments about 'boys' stuff' simply reflect that the wee lad is probably overdosing on the things he's not been allowed to experience till now, and the judge sees that as a positive that the dad is being led by the boy. In the same way as a thread about restricting DCs access to sugary foods will lead to them gorging themselves on chocolate as soon as they can go to the shops by themselves.

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iPost · 22/10/2016 00:19

For any other child in similar circumstances whose father.....

-gave up after years of hitting professional brick walls

or

  • wasn't that invested in the first place


where exactly would the mother have hit a barrier in pushing forward a trans future for her child ?

Before puberty blockers ?

Before replacement hormones ?

Before body altering surgery ?

Or after all of it?

This kid had a dad prepared to go to considerable lengths. For a very extended period of time. In the face of outright opposition to his presence in his child's life from a professional making an assessment of the family.

A system will fail children, horrendously, if the only profound examination of what's what relies on an alienated parent showing incredible tenacity in what must have felt like a protracted losing battle.

If nothing else, given the above, the high stakes if they get it wrong and the judges remarks (about professionals' unwillingness to confront and enter into conflict with a growing orthodoxy)... maybe there will be more focus on a child's needs, and less of a priority placed on a professional adult's (understandable) desire not to be called a bigot.
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YetAnotherSpartacus · 22/10/2016 08:27

Obviously, the judge did the right thing, but it does reinforce the point that both the transactivists and the conservatives are in bed together over what constitutes 'proper' masculinity and feminity, leaving those of us who are gender critical out in the cold.

iPost - great point and I am off to read the judgement right now ...

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Kennington · 22/10/2016 08:34

This is in all the papers.
I agree that in a few years there will be a raft of abuse cases over similar.
It is pushing sex on prepubescent children. If this was in any other context it would be classed as a SS issue immediately.

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YetAnotherSpartacus · 22/10/2016 09:21

I've read the judgement. For me, these are the pertinent passages (bolding mine);

"When all this is properly analysed it is clear that flares of concern were being sent from a whole raft of multi disciplinary agencies. Each was signalling real anxiety in respect of this child's welfare. Whilst it is, I suppose, conceivable that these referrals were considered individually, it is impossible to draw any inference other than that they were never evaluated collectively. When they were drawn to the attention of Lucy Davidson, the senior social worker, who now has conduct of this case, she said in her evidence 'is it is difficult to justify some of the decision-making that took place'. That was a measured and careful response. She was not pressed further. However it does not, in my judgement, go far enough. This local authority has consistently failed to take appropriate intervention where there were strong grounds for believing that a child was at risk of serious emotional harm. I propose to invite the Director of Children's Services to undertake a thorough review of the social work response to this case. Professional deficiencies to this extent cannot go unchecked, if confidence in this Local Authority's safeguarding structures is to be maintained.

I am afraid to say that I can only describe the conclusions of the section 37 report as entirely lacking in any logical, coherent analysis. I have found it quite impossible to understand why so many concerns were disregarded so summarily. Neither the senior social worker in this case nor the lawyer who acts on the Authority's behalf have sought to advance any explanation.

Not only are the conclusions of the report irreconcilable with the core information within it but it is striking that the Local Authority had moved into wholesale acceptance that J should be regarded as a girl. Once again, I make no apology for repeating the fact that J was still only 4 years of age. The conclusions of the report speak of J by use of the feminine pronoun. There was no independent or supportive evidence that J identified as a girl at all, indeed there was a body of material that suggested the contrary. The cry for investigation went unheeded:

23.5. The Local Authority have received a large number of referrals where concerns have been raised in relation to [J] presenting as a girl rather than concerns in relation [J]'s welfare and the care that is provided to [J]. It is evident that some agencies do not have a full understanding of gender non conforming children and have therefore contacted Children's Service, sometimes when they have not met [J]. This clearly frustrates [M] and leaves her feeling that she is unsupported, and has caused her to feel stressed and anxious. Therefore [M] mistrusts professionals which is often interpreted as that she is unwilling to engage with services. "

The two remaining passages of the conclusion make very disheartening reading indeed. They combine both naivety and professional arrogance. Concerns were dismissed on the basis that it was the other agencies who 'did not have a full understanding of gender non-conforming children'. In fact it was Ms Jenkins and her senior managers whose understanding was lacking.

23.7. In all my dealings with the family there has been no evidence of risk of harm to [J]. However the impact of ongoing disputes between parents is likely to cause a risk of emotional harm to [J] and it is hoped this will be resolved as a result of these court proceedings."

"23.8. In addition, the manner in which [J]'s gender identity is responded to by professionals could also cause emotional difficulties, as had been evidenced in research around gender non conforming children cited earlier. It appears that [M] is genuinely attempting to protect [J] from the impact of this. While there is clear evidence that [M] has on occasion declined support and challenged professionals, she is able to explain these decisions and as a parent does have a right to select the services she feels are best for her child. She has accessed support from services such as Housing Support, [Local Charity] and the Tavistock Centre, and advises that she is seeking out education provision for [J] at the present time."

As the proceedings before Judge Penna progressed there developed a prevailing orthodoxy that J identified as a girl. Though I suspect the father continued to have his doubts, he had been unable to secure contact with his son and, driven to rely on others, I think began to assume that so many professionals having accepted that J was presenting as a girl, they must be correct".



My reading of the judgement was that the transnarrative was so strong that many (especially social workers and others in similar social care roles) were either swept up in the orthodoxy, or scared to counter it. Those who did provide an alternative viewpoint were schools / teachers, and they were ignored.

This fills me with embarrassment (because I am connected with the social care professions) and fear. I can honestly see this happening and workers either drinking the mother's cool-aid, being too scared to challenge it, or simply not giving a damn.

I am so angry at the transactivists and their rule by fear. They are nasty bullies who patrol an orthodoxy that silences dissent and will ultimately hurt children. I see Mermaids have come out in support of the mother and are writing an 'open letter'. I wonder if they have even read the judgement? Hopefully, this will make them look very silly.

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StepAwayFromTheThesaurus · 22/10/2016 09:32

It really isn't a lazy judgement. The judge is very clear that this is not actually a case about gender nonconformity at all; it's a case about a mother who has sought to utterly control her son's identity and has not allowed him to be his own person at all. The fact that the child makes very different choices where he is given any space to decide himself (at school and at his father's house) is simply evidenced of that.

The fact that the mother was fixated in gender identity (as opposed to illness or anything else) is actually a bit of a red herring. The only notable thing about it is that the mother's particular fixation aligned with a particularly powerful orthodoxy that meant the social workers were unwilling to challenge her. If she'd been insisting he was unwell, they'd have been completely willing to challenge her but not when she insisted he was actually a girl.

It's a bit like the thread about the poor woman who's worried she can't challenge someone who regularly and purposefully transgresses her (and others') personal boundaries because he's loudly identifying according to the same orthodoxy. Both are very dangerous situations.

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