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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Consquences of self-identification

1000 replies

MrsKCastle · 17/09/2016 14:37

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

OP posts:
ageingrunner · 01/10/2016 11:53

I'm going to compose my own letter I think, inspired by Winchester's. I know this might sound rather dim, but what is the proposed legislation and is it currently being debated?

WinchesterWoman · 01/10/2016 11:56

Thanks so much to all, i'm going to adjust according to what you say Spartacus and FTW. Thank you. Yes lift and exploit, everyone. Lift and exploit.

CharlieSierra · 01/10/2016 11:56

Can we all also write to Maria Miller do you think, as well as our own MP?

WinchesterWoman · 01/10/2016 11:57

Yes I'll send it to her, what is she now, like the chair of a committee or something?

Datun · 01/10/2016 12:00

And I agree with YetAnother. Links would be useful. A direct question focuses the mind of the reader. And maybe a request for an appointment during their surgery to discuss.

I made an appointment with my MP to talk about the care of the elderly when my mum was in a care home. Unfortunately she died on the day of the appointment so I cancelled. BUT the MP's office followed up several times to re-schedule. I don't know whether this particular issue was important to the MP or whether they are just duty-bound to listen, but they didn't let it slide.

CharlieSierra · 01/10/2016 12:04

Women and equalities isn't she? And I'm sure I read that she said she can envisage no scenario which would necessitate segregation on the grounds of sex.

We could do something like the Spartacus threads, committing to writing letters.

ftw · 01/10/2016 12:06

Great idea Charlie.

What about also for sending to the worst of the trans-gressive media offenders (BBC and Guardian, I'm looking at you...)

WinchesterWoman · 01/10/2016 12:22

Ok I'm going to ask for a surgery meeting

WinchesterWoman · 01/10/2016 12:24

To be fair I don't think Maria Miller is awfully bright

WinchesterWoman · 01/10/2016 12:25

I think she could be stubborn in the way that not-very-bright people are stubborn

venusinscorpio · 01/10/2016 12:28

She will. She's an idiot.

venusinscorpio · 01/10/2016 12:29

But it will be interesting to see what she says given how clued up you are.

vesuvia · 01/10/2016 12:40

ATransMum wrote - "I suggest you do a bit better research before making those claims. None of those research papers provide cast iron proof. But they all provide evidence."

I hope you are not trying to imply that just because a paper has been published, its results and interpretations must therefore be valid.

I hope you are referring to better evidence than the statement, in an article you linked to, that claims:
"The sexual behavior and attitudes of all 16 subjects ultimately reflected strong masculine characteristics regardless of gender assignment."

Masculinity is a cultural phenomenon that varies with time and place. Deciding what is masculine is a subjective judgement. Claiming that data collected in a survey of people strongly reflect something that is a subjective and variable characteristic is at best, very poor evidence of any fixed attribute, including an allegedly fixed gender identity. Does it even merit being called evidence?

So, ATransMum, I suggest you do better research about how scientists often make incorrect and/or unjustified interpretations of their data, especially in the very subjective topic of people's feelings about their bodies and behaviours, before you cite their studies as evidence of the existence of gender identity as a biological object or biological process.

WinchesterWoman · 01/10/2016 12:40

The whole trans thing is like Idiocracy

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/10/2016 13:08

OK, so according to this;

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/women-and-equalities-committee/news-parliament-2015/transgender-equality-government-response-published-16-17/

it looks like the current government is on our side. This is good.

"The response provides some welcome commitments to undertake further reviews and other work, but it is disappointing in key respects.

The Government is committed to a new trans equality action plan, and a review of the Gender Recognition Act 2004, to "determine whether changes can be made to improve it in order to streamline and de-medicalise the gender recognition process". There is, however, no definite commitment to changing the law "in line with the principles of gender self-declaration", as the Committee recommended.

The response also indicates that there will be reviews or future action on: inclusion of trans people in sport, transphobia in the NHS, clinical protocols for NHS Gender Identity Services, the recording of gender in passports, unnecessary recording of gender information, the rights of trans prisoners, and numerous other trans equality issues."

It may also be worth asking for any current reviews to include representation by 'people on our side' if it is possible to identify a lobby or interest group, or even an identifiable group of people who take a gender-critical approach. I'm guessing that there might be stakeholders who are anti many of the proposals, including de-transitioners, families of women prisoners, sexual assault centres, different 'women's only' groups, etc. (Just thinking out loud).

Standard disclaimer that I am not opposed to trans people per se and there are some forms of discrimination against trans people that I find objectionable and abhorrent, etc., but I also agree with most written here about preserving women's and girls' spaces, etc.

SheTabTom · 01/10/2016 13:18

Self Identification - why the problem? This:
I've linked a Metro news story about a woman who did a sex act in public at a childrens' park.
The problem with this story is I don't see a woman I see a MtT because of the wide shoulders, hip bone ratio and muscular legs (also AFAB don't tend to commit these type of crimes). The picture is less censored in the DailyMail if anyone has the stomach to look.
I will put my hands up and admit I'm wrong if this person is AFAB but it screams MAN to me and no one else is seeing this - if this is a MtT it will be recorded as a woman crime statistic and that it just wrong.

Again I could be wrong and this is a Woman, but I just cannot see it and feel I'm going mad seeing MtT when I should be seeing Woman.
metro.co.uk/2016/09/28/police-hunt-woman-pictured-having-sex-with-dinosaur-at-childrens-park-6158494/

WinchesterWoman · 01/10/2016 13:19

Yes good ideas, great ideas spart.

Felascloak · 01/10/2016 13:31

I think it is a woman shetab based on the pic here metro.co.uk/2016/10/01/woman-pictured-having-sex-with-dinosaur-at-childrens-park-identified-by-police-6164118/

Datun · 01/10/2016 13:33

Further to YetAnotherSpartacus post, Mumsnet is a powerful lobby and I should imagine the profile of members is pretty broad as a representation of women in general.

If they are unable to officially sanction one particular viewpoint, is there a way of harnessing those members who do ?

(I'm not an active enough member, to understand the ins and outs).

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/10/2016 13:37

It's much more obvious on The Daily Mail site. Out of about 100 comments 3 questioned whether it was a man.

Many posts talked about a disgusting woman or similar.

The picture looks like a man masturbating ; or if you prefer a person with a penis masturbating. It would be rather difficult for a woman , or a person with a vagina to have engaged her body with the dinosaur statue.

WankingMonkey · 01/10/2016 13:46

FreshwaterSelkie That link is horrific. The amount of kids saying things such as

My mom put me in a dress at Easter. [But I] went to church in dirty jeans and a big T-shirt. That was kind of a big signal.

As 'proof' that they were trans. Its all so sad really...but this kind of thing is actively encourages, rather than just letting these kids wear what the fuck they want and be who they are :S

Datun · 01/10/2016 13:47

There is a picture in the Mirror online of her from the front and she looks fairly female from that angle.

SheTabTom · 01/10/2016 13:48

This may be a woman but I am now beginning to question media stories, especially where the salacious details of women committing sex crimes are concerned.
I am now for the first time in my 40+ years on the earth beginning to not trust a lot of the main stream media, all starting from false reporting of MtT crimes.

ATransMum · 01/10/2016 14:12

Let me talk about shark attacks for a moment (it seems appropriate as we were looking at then yesterday with my kids).

They make headline news all the time. Everyone is petrified of shark attacks. They make movies about shark attacks (some better than others). Sharks are seen as this deadly threat to humankind.

But the actual underlying statistics are rather interesting.

There are almost 500 species of shark. Only 3 of them have ever committed fatal attacks on humans. Yes, less than 1%.

On average sharks attacks number under a hundred per annum (roughly 70 odd, more often than not through human stupidity) worldwide, and deaths are in single figures. Yet we are petrified of sharks. We scandalize them on television, they are hunted for the supposed prowess and sometimes to 'keep us safe'.

Humans kill over 100 million sharks every year.

There are 18 species animals that are responsible for more deaths every year, on average, aside from humans of course. Horses, deer, cows, elephants, hippos and domestic dogs are all more deadly (and one of those we keep in our houses, and one of those use as for entertainment). Some of those by quite a margin (Deer primary kill us by putting their antlers through our windscreens, but cows? Those things are mean when provoked!)

Mosquitos kill up to a million people per annum.

More Americans die from 'inhalation of gastric contents' that there are actual shark attacks.

More Americans die from 'ignition or melting of nightwear' than die from shark attacks.

But yes, let's focus on sharks to make us 'feel safer'. Of the several million people killed every year by animals, let's focus on the single digit number and not the millions. Or hundreds of thousands. Or even hundreds. The single digits, because they are 'scary' and keep us awake at night.

Sharks don't have a Reddit forum to discuss their sexual desire for eating humans thankfully. Otherwise they would be perceived as even more scary...

Now apply the same logic to trans people in bathrooms. Only the difference here is that there aren't 70 attacks in the past year you can even find. There are one or two, if that, tenuously linked to being trans and passed around like sacred stones among the anti-trans lobby. And few if any of those are in the 'safe spaces' you talk about. Yet we trans people have been using them for decades already. Self identification or not.

But trans people in the media are often portrayed as villains or perverts (I'm guessing you watched Silence of the Lambs?). The media turns us into sharks (yup, that's a battleground I'm engaged in on a different front). Then factor in the masturbatory fiction found on Reddit and bingo you have a mental picture of a trans person as a hairy assed knuckle dragging man with a deep voice pawing at the door of the ladies bathroom with one hand fumbling in his knickers (misgendering deliberate for effect, I hasten to add).

Real life couldn't be further from the truth. There are still few, if any, cases of an actual 'shark attack'. But the fear is there.

Fear is a incredibly powerful motivator. It does make us irrational and triggers primitive responses, especially when it comes to protecting our young. I fully understand that desire to protect yourself and your offspring (I have two daughters, one just turned 13 - protecting them from sexual predators is one of my primary concerns as well). Vilifying trans people as sharks is not the answer (we aren't even sharks).

Here is what you could be doing instead:

  • Getting behind campaigns to provide better Sex and Relationship Education
  • Asking for improvements on reporting and communication around sexual offences
  • Redefining the sexual offences in this country (rape is only rape if it involves a penis in the UK!)
  • Getting behind the campaign to make misogyny (e.g. cat-calling) a hate crime (you probably don't want to because the campaign was started by someone that identifies as non-binary - but here is the campaign link anyway - chn.ge/2ddecnG )

Those are just a few starters. And focusing at the mosiquto end of the animal attack scale (especially the misogny one. How much safer would women feel if cat-calling were made illegal?!?)

The trans agenda is on your side with all of the above (like we pretty much started the last one. And were any of you standing outside Parliament chanting for better sex education this year?)

We also want a safer world with less predatory attackers, we want safety for ourselves and for our children just as much as you do.

You don't need to believe in being trans to stand with us. All we really need is some solidarity, respect for our pronouns and the chance to coexist peacefully.

And realise that we want to use the bathroom to pee.

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