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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Consquences of self-identification

1000 replies

MrsKCastle · 17/09/2016 14:37

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

OP posts:
WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 20:14

One transwoman actually kicked up a big stink when they didn't! saying it was discrimination

CharlieSierra · 30/09/2016 20:20

What discrimination that the NHS didn't waste money calling them for a test they didn't need and couldn't have? Shock

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 20:27

lookee here

What are the risks for transwomen? Cervical cancer is a risk for some transwomen, depending on the types of surgeries they have undergone.
Transwomen who have not had a vaginoplasty (surgical creation of a vagina) do not have a cervix so are not at risk for cervical cancer.
Some types of vaginoplasty use the head of the penis to form a cervix; in these cases there is a risk of cervical cancer. Regular screenings should be performed. There is also a theoretical risk of vaginal cancer after vaginoplasty, but vaginal cancer is a rare type of cancer (in both transwomen and non-trans women). There may be higher risks of vaginal cancer in transwomen who have HPV and have a compromised immune system (e.g. due to HIV). When no cervix is present a pap smear of the vaginal cuff may still be taken.

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 20:28

who knew? none of which affects transgender types who identify without body modification

FreshwaterSelkie · 30/09/2016 20:40

That can't be right about cervical cancer. I've had a hysterectomy, so I don't have a cervix, I have a vaginal cuff. I never have to have a smear test because with no cervix I cannot get cervical cancer. You can't create a cervix! Is that site a spoof or something??

CharlieSierra · 30/09/2016 20:41

But vaginal cancer in a transwoman wouldn't actually be vaginal cancer, because their vagina is made of penis - so it would be a cancer of penile tissue. Same as their 'cervix'. Quite liking the idea of getting the largest size of speculum and giving them the full benefit tbh.

WankingMonkey · 30/09/2016 20:43

Good points WitchingHour666

Its honestly not something I have really given any thought to before and yes I think you are right. I should maybe think a bit deeper about things before writing out my thought process in public :p

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 21:12

I don't know if it's a spoof but it is frightfully trans affirming. To be fair lots of things I think are a joke turn out to be true in trans world (like a woman identifying as a man who identifies as a woman).

One is literally at the stage where you couldn't make it up. I think for a lot of trans people finding your new gender means losing your sense of humour. Unless it's loads of !!!!!! about getting your make up right.

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 21:16

I mean one doesn't have to look far.

Due to differences in the brains of men and women and also due to the effects of testosterone vs. oestrogen, adult men and women are not equally equipped, mentally and physically. For example, if have a need for big strong people to help lift heavy loads, you'll find more men than women. There aren't a lot of women working on moving vans, for example. Men, in general, are just physically bigger and stronger than women. But, when it comes to handling electronic components on an assembly line, you'll find almost only women. Women's brains (and hormones) make them far more patient with repetitive tasks then men for whom it is almost torture. So, society keeps itself efficient by creating unspoken boundaries between the sexes that guide men and women into activities for which they will be most efficient overall.

The Lord preserve us

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 21:16

How could you write that and not fall about laughing?

FreshwaterSelkie · 30/09/2016 21:23

I propose a new gender-identity-specific Poe's law for the post factual world we now seem to inhabit. We could call it Bindel's Law!

CharlieSierra · 30/09/2016 21:25

like a woman identifying as a man who identifies as a woman

OMG I want to do this! Do you think I'd get a pay rise?

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 21:33

of course Charlie it's so much better than being just a boring everyday woman! you can have all the validation you need, haste ye to Tumblr and wallow

that's what it is Selkie - it's Poe's Law - it's Bindel's Law! I want to see more examples now

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 21:35

Do you have to be on guard all the time to prevent yourself from falling into feminine poses and movements? This is a big one - one of the best questions to help you sort out if you are really transgendered.

WinchesterWoman · 30/09/2016 21:37

Am I being cruel? Is this cruel? So many people are so unhappy with this dysmorphia. But my God - what could be more cruel than leading someone to think they can change sex, or that they're already the opposite sex, with this sort of nonsense?

HairyLittlePoet · 30/09/2016 21:56

WinchesterWoman - bows? BOWS???!

Curtsey dammit.

HairyLittlePoet · 30/09/2016 22:09

Of course a MTT can have a cervix made from a penis.

To know if the penile cells have successfully transitioned into cervical cells, you do this: What happens is, the pathologist puts the male penile cells on one side of the glass slide, a small cotton tissue barrier and some female cervical cells on the other. When observed carefully, a proportion of penile cells will start migrating towards and attempting to breach the cotton barrier, then they will begin actively pursuing the rapidly retreating female cervical cells around the slide whilst yelling bigot TERF DIAF. These cells have made a successful transition.

venusinscorpio · 30/09/2016 22:19

Just caught up after a hectic day. Love it Hairy Grin

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 30/09/2016 22:25

Friends is back on Comedy central. Watched 'the one' where Monica fashions foreskin out of luncheon meat for Joey's 'interview'.

It was good telly

vesuvia · 30/09/2016 22:31

ATransMum wrote - "gender is a combination of personality and socialisation... Would you agree personality is a mix of nature and nurture?"

I think the word "gender" is too vague for discussions about transgenderism and feminism, because it means different things to gender-critical feminists and most transgendered people.

Gender role is a set of expectations imposed on people by society, in which men have cherry-picked the most socially-valuable traits and expectations, and women have been forced to settle for the socially-undervalued leftovers. Although gender role is assigned by biological sex, that does not make nature the cause of gender role. Gender role is a social construct and it is entirely nurture.

Gender identity is currently a social construct and currently entirely nurture. There is no evidence yet that gender identity is a biological object or biological process, e.g. no gene that makes people unhappy with their sex has been found. Currently, gender identity is basically just a popular idea that transgendered people and their supporters use to try to make sense of their real and undeniable unhappiness. Among other things, gender identity attempts to explain a feeling of womanhood as natural, innate and independent of biological sex. Gender identity being only an idea does not negate the fact that some people are unhappy about their sex and/or gender role - this unhappiness does not have to depend on the existence of a thing called a gender identity inside a person's body.

CoteDAzur · 30/09/2016 23:02

ATM - re "It seems laughable to divide society into male vs female"

It doesn't, actually. Not to those of us with at least the bare minimum of knowledge on human biology.

Repeat after me: Homo Sapiens is a Sexually Dimorphic species.

There really are just two sexes: Male and female.

This is true for cats. It's true for dogs. It's true for sheep, cattle, lions, whales. And it's true for human beings.

CoteDAzur · 30/09/2016 23:09

"I knew I was trans at age 7"

And yet you went on to get married and have loads of PIV sex with your wife? You managed to have multiple children the old fashioned way, by orgasming while thrusting your penis inside a woman'a vagina?

Are we really supposed to believe that you thought yourself female during all that time?

ATransMum · 01/10/2016 01:37

@CharlieSierra

I said some trans people have an intense disgust for their primary and/or secondary sexual characteristics. I'm not one of them. There is no 'one size fits all' category for trans people (and we don't break up into convenient 'early and late' transitioners either). Personally I hate my shoulders and upper body because they are still quite masculine compared to the rest of my body, but there is bugger all I can do about that due to the effects of testosterone on my skeleton.

I also said (with hindsight) I knew I was trans at age 7. But back then I wan't able to verbalise or understand what that meant.

ATransMum · 01/10/2016 04:42

There is no evidence yet that gender identity is a biological object or biological process, e.g. no gene that makes people unhappy with their sex has been found

www.medscape.com/viewarticle/840538_3

I suggest you do a bit better research before making those claims. None of those research papers provide cast iron proof. But they all provide evidence.

There are strong correlations between certain genes (primary those that affect hormone production) and being transgender. There are strong correlations between certain bimorphic structures within the brain and trans people. There are strong correlations between mono and dizygotic twins that show a genetic predisposition.

But the science isn't perfect. We are dealing with a lot of grey areas with brain science (pun intended) and we still don't fully understand everything about the brain. So I'm not claiming that there is a 'pink versus blue' brain because I don't believe there is. Human personality is far too complex to draw a simple line, and nurture does play a part.

This is why I don't bring up the science behind this - there is no concrete proof and that's what you want to see. But there is a strong wave of evidence so please don't say there isn't.

But feel free to counter those claims with medical research from the John Hopkins University (especially Paul McHugh), or anything written by Walt Heyer. Or Blanchard - because his research (back in the 80's don't forget) is widely discredited by a whole host of professionals (including an entire medical board), for a whole bunch of reasons, but still used to underpin plenty of anti-trans arguments. It's even mentioned a few times in this thread!

FreshwaterSelkie · 01/10/2016 07:26

You are very resilient, ATM. Not making much headway, but full marks for effort!

Here's the thing about research into "what makes people different": be careful what you wish for. If researchers discover a "gene" for trans, or a brain configuration for trans, what do you think will happen with that information? You're lecturing on this to a board full of feminists, who, if they have done their reading (and there are a lot of very erudite, clever women here), know what historically happens when one group of people are "scientifically" proven to be Other. The dominant group then uses this as a means and a reason to control them. For many hundreds of years as modern science flailed its way into being, women were Scientifically Proven to be inferior to men, and look how that turned out for us, eh? Darwin, for example, was a massive sexist, and turned himself inside out trying to prove that women were less evolved than men. Same goes for all that was sacrificied on the altar of the "proof" that white people are genetically superior.

This kind of research is always politically driven, and it's disingenous to suggest otherwise. Right now, there's a lot of funding being pushed into trans research. And the results of this will be played out on a generation of young gender non conforming kids. The logical outcome of people like you pushing for a biological basis of trans to be discovered will be the sterlization and effective reparative therapy of a generation of kids who would otherwise grow up to be lesbians and gay men, or who would just happily desist from the GNC.

It is NOT politically neutral, and what you don't seem to be grasping is the blowback for women - the more research being done into "proving" that GNC males have "female" brains, the more tightly the bars of the prison of gender close around women and our "female" brains. We have been fighting for a century or more to leave that fucking prison behind, but now this tide of transactivism is threatening to push us right back in again and throw away the key.

Look at this and tell me that this is good science. Personally, I think it looks like eugenics.

For better or worse, the science is not there yet, and given the limits of controlling for brain plasticity, the dearth of evidence for any meaningful difference between male and female brains, never mind those that find themselves in the "wrong" body or not, we may well never be. The umbrella of "trans" has expanded so much that there couldn't possibly be one cause, anyway.

Isn't the compassionate thing to do to accept gender non conformity as something that has primarily a psychological and social aeitology and work out ways that we can all live that support people to be fine and happy, just as they are? That it is perfectly acceptable to be a gender non conforming male, and dress as you please, sleep with whoever wants to sleep with you, perform any role you want in life, but drop the pretence that you might change sex, and most of all, drop the requirement that everyone else collude in your world view.

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