Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

ATM - I'm interested that you were a transwoman while you were married ( I assume to a straight woman ) and had kids with her .

Did you tell her that you were trans when you first met, or only when you started dating ? Were you out to everyone at that time or only your close friends and family and how did they take it when you said you were marrying a straight woman ?

Can I ask how being trans affected how you brought up your children? Did you take all the parental leave or did you share it with your wife? And were you a SAHP or did you go back to work part time ?

How do you feel that this affected you career? Did you do all the wifework and domestic labour at home or did your wife help you out at all ?

I'm intrigued to know how your life as a trans mum has compared to that of most other mums.

Yes, I am interested to hear about how TransMum's career has been affected by having children & how they feel about being on the mummy track, rather than the fast track. God knows, many of us have been there.

Its too early in the morning to read scientific reviews for me ... The opening of the medscape article linked by ATM cited as 'the most convincing evidence that gender identity is fixed' seems to me to show that biological sex is fixed.

But those generic and hormone factors don't have to lead to being transitioning between male and female. If we widened the scope of what society accepted (as in, get rid of gender and gender roles and gender stereotypes) people would be free too express themselves however they choose. They could be as feminine as they liked, but still male, because male is not a personality type. It's nothing more and nothing less than a physical reality. Same with being female.

Haha I'm the same errol.
The first section is proof that intersex people are more likely to transition to their chromosomal sex, so while interesting and providing some evidence that there is a "gender identity" not relevant to trans gender people who aren't intersex.
The second section talks about a sexually dimorphic brain structure being more typically female than male in MTT taking oestrogen. I want to know how they discount hormone treatment from causing that, rather than transgenderism. That result would be a lot more convincing to me if they'd shown that pattern in pre-transition males questioning their GID. Being sceptical, I assume that evidence doesn't exist as I'm sure people have looked.

ATM you've said a few things now that I find problematic. The fact we get our knowledge of kink from fifty shades for example. And the insinuation that we don't do science. Fucking right off. I'm willing to bet that there are women posting here on this thread that are more qualified than you are to understand the science (or not) of trans gender ism.
Please think what your patronising attitude to us says about how you view women and females. I struggle how you can say you are a woman when you have such a low opinion of us.

ATM

Everything in that link as been addressed by silly in her brain studies blog.

There is a lot of information omitted in those studies. Why would they omit data and facts? Could it be that it didn't fit there agender?

I believe this thread was to talk about tge consequences of self identification. You are not here to talk about the consequences and have managed to derail the thread by turning into all about being 'trans' and not about women.

So earlier on this thread there were draft letters being made. Hows it going? Who should we send them to? What can we include for evidence?

What the evidence so far may be pointing to is that a key part of our biological sex is our hormone system (well, yes). There are genetic conditions which cause hormonal abnormalities. (Well, yes). Ok, so where does that lead? Well, first off it could kick the fake 'feelz' contingent into touch.

But maybe this could also mean that if theres a kid who has such a condition, who might currently be identified as 'trans' and pushed towards the route of opposite-sex hormones, surgery and sterility, couldn't they be much better served by clearly offering the alternative of same-sex hormones (or anti-opposite sex treatment), no surgery and fertility? No pressure to conform to any stupid gender stereotypes or sexual preference, of course, just treat the abnormality instead of effectively reinforcing it?

Maybe this is particularly obvious to me because I've got a condition associated with sex hormone abnormalities, pcos. It was treated appropriately and so I've got a DD and no acne. I've also got a non-sex hormone condition, hypothyroidism. It's treated and I'm not a depressed sloth.

It's a derail by mansplain (tm)

As a woman, I've never struggled with 'liquid eyeliner' as it is not an intrinsic part of being female and I have never used it in my life. Eyeliner is a manufactured artificial prop which can be applied by anyone and on anyone. Heck you could apply it to any hairless animal or thing. The Pharaohs used it, male and female. Other guys use that sort of thing in those middle eastern places. One could ask them for a few tips.

ATransMum, I though Klinefelter Syndrome usually renders males sterile. Unless they are one of the males with this syndrome who underwent successful medical intervention to assist with reproduction. They must do something to develop the sperm properly. I imagine there would have been a medical diagnosis if they undergo such treatment. "Microdissection testicular sperm extraction in adult men". Can't imagine that would have have left no memory of diagnosis. or would have been much fun. Also it says there can be speech difficulties and other associated issues as part of this medical Syndrome.

If a man has sired children in the normal way and without the special assistance for Klinefelter, are the chances of Klinefelter that high? Even with a male just having even one extra X, with the XY. Someone would probably also look at the other symptoms males with this condition have.

adult men? as opposed to juvenile men or adult boys?

How can we show the evidence, and use it as reference in a letter?

That's an excellent point Errol. I've never thought about it like that.

YY, Errol.

Even if genetic or hormonal conditions were identified that caused dysphoria, attempts to transition to the opposite sex are far from the logical or only outcome. It looks like there might well be a biological element to schizophrenia, but you still treat it, you don't tell people with schizophrenia that the voices are real and suggest ways that they can stop the government spying on them. You don't reinforce the erroneous thinking (I am not saying that trans is the same as a mental illness, for clarity. Though I have to say I don't understand the resistance to this in the trans community, other than a slightly worrying underlying assumption that mental illnesses or disorders aren't "real", which is a whole separate thread I think.).

I Just want to drop in and say thank you, thank you, thank you for being an accessible and safe space to challenge current trans orthodoxy. I found you by Googling something like "over trans rubbish" and a link to a discussion popped up somehow, or I surfed to it - can't remember. But I have spent the last few days hungrily reading all the sensible comments on here from fellow feminists who are terrified of what the political trans movement could do to women and girls (as well as any child who is groomed by this movement towards hormones and surgery). I won't say more here, except that I work in a sector related to children and young people, and I am terrified by the way that trans orthodoxy has taken over policy and practice, as well as the brains of people who I thought were smart and critical thinkers, zombifying them into trans-sheeple. I'll post more on this later, maybe, once I've got the vibe of the place.

Dear MP
I am concerned about proposed changes in the law on gender identification and the impact on young women and girls.

The combined effect of allowing people to self-identify, and allowing those who self-identify into women's spaces, will in effect allow all men into women's spaces and will be exploited by those who wish harm to women and girls. It will be difficult if not impossible to challenge men who self-identify or who falsely self-identify for fear of women, girls and teenagers being accused of a hate crime.

There are already men who self-identify as women or transwomen without making any changes to their bodies. This number is growing and will inevitably expand further with the cultural shift towards self-identification. Men commit the overwhelming majority of sexual and violent crimes, and offenders are known to exploit all opportunities to commit sexual and violent crimes. I do not think the legislative body of the UK, whose duty is to protect women and children equally as much as men, should be sanctioning legislation which makes life more difficult and dangerous for them.

I beg you to help to ensure that women and girls are protected in sex-segregated spaces, be they showers, toilets, refuges, rape crisis centres, hospitals, the doctors' clinic or prisons. I beg you not only to work against any legislation, but to speak up against these changes, in order to resist the cultural shift that endangers our physical safety.

I beg you on behalf of my daughter, who currently attends a university that has enshrined in its rules the ability to self identify and thus gain automatically gain access to sex-segregated spaces. A small example: this means she could be naked in a communal shower, with no one else around, when a naked fully intact male enters, who may or may not identify as female, who may or may not have criminal intentions, and who she has no right to challenge or question in any way.

I'm begging you on behalf of all women and girl children. Please help us.

Yours

This is my letter. What do you think.

welcome YetAnotherSpartacus. This is possibly the only open forum where discussion isn't shut down. Elsewhere any critique of trans theory has to happen in private groups.

Mumsnet is extraordinary, as are the administrators who could choose to eliminate risk entirely by just closing down any and all debate, but they don't.

That top sentence should just say 'women and girls' not 'young women and girls'

I'm actually almost in tears of gratitude at the mods. Maybe I'm a bit hormonal. How ironic.

Winchester its a wonderful heart felt, personal letter. That you could send. The more letters/emails MPs receive the better.

The reason why fox hunting has been discussed so much in parliament. Is only because every MP was constantly inundated with piles of letters. Every year fox hunting was the most commonly constantly complained about issue for MPs.

Thanks I'm going to send it. But it will out me to my MP. Is that a bad thing?

Like Kristina I would love to hear ATM's wife's side of the story; all we know is ATM is heroically trying to stay on civil terms with her.

If I were married to ATM and ATM announced after many years that ATM was really a trans woman and had always been a trans woman I think I'd be furious. ATM would have been lying and deceiving me.

Oh and by the way ATM unlike most of the other posters , I'm not a feminist, let alone one of the radical variety; unlike most of the other posters I'm not entirely resistant to the idea that it's not just biology and socialisation which distinguishes men and women. However I find your choice of username offensive.

When I saw it I assumed you were the biological mother of a trans child. Out of all the nouns in the world you pick the one which until now has unequivocally meant a biological women, usually a woman who gives birth to a child.

It's interesting that you pick the word for a function which is biologically impossible for any person with an xy chromosome and appropriate it.

You could have been "ATransParent" (neat pun too) or Atrans[insert any relevant descriptor] yet you choose the one thing you are not.

I think it is great WW - my only suggestions are that

(i) you ask a direct question, such as "How can you assure me that, given the overwhelming statistics that show that most gender-related crime is perpetrated against women and girls (if you can find a source with stats that would be better) by men and boys that women and girls will be safe under this new law, given that it will allow men into women's safe spaces?"

(That might get you a non-form letter response)

and

(ii) That instead of saying 'please help us' you more specifically spell out that you'd like them to vote aginst the proposed law.

Otherwise - I think we should all send similar ...

Winchester

That's a great letter. Non-judgemental, rational and sincere. Do you mind if I borrow it ?

Winchester, fantastic letter! My only suggestion is to name the proposed new legislation.