Consquences of self-identification

[MrsKCastle]

Sorry if this has already been done. I've been doing a lot of thinking about current trans thinking in the media.

As far as I understand it, this is the predominant view:
Anyone can be man or woman, male, female or neither. It doesn't depend on your genes, appearance or potential ability to hear young. What's important is how you identify. We should always treat people as they identify, with regard to how we speak about and treat them, and what spaces/roles we allow them to access.

What I'm interested in, is how this self-identification will or could change society. I'd love to hear your thoughts as I think it will help me to get things straight in my head.

So far I'm thinking:
No more single-sex schools
No more single-sex hospital wards
No more single-sex clubs, whether that's Brownies or exclusive golf clubs
Anyone can apply for any scholarship or award, regardless of sex

What else?

"4 of them have been threatened with rape and violence for stating they are not attracted to people with penises. Not one of them knew the penis existed until the 'last minute' so to speak. "
Were there others who discovered 'at the last minute' but weren't threatened? Frankly, if I had got to 'last minute' with someone then discovered this, I would feel not just embarrassed/mortified/ deceived, I would feel violated having been in an intimate vulnerable position with someone with a penis without my knowledge. It isn't consensual if that consent has been obtained via deception. And this sort of behaviour is just that! The added threats just highlight it.

Transwomen would say you're too obsessed with genitals, Somedyke. Why are you so interested in what's in people's underwear? You must have a fetish.

I agree, it would be a violation. It is undoubtedly nonconsensual, deceptive behaviour.

But where I've seen this discussed transpeople say that they "didn't feel the need to discuss this at an early stage on a date".

Were there others who discovered 'at the last minute' but weren't threatened? Frankly, if I had got to 'last minute' with someone then discovered this, I would feel not just embarrassed/mortified/ deceived, I would feel violated having been in an intimate vulnerable position with someone with a penis without my knowledge. It isn't consensual if that consent has been obtained via deception. And this sort of behaviour is just that! The added threats just highlight it.

They weren't threatened at the time. Maybe I should have made this clearer. One was. She received a black eye. The others received threats when it was found out that they turned down sex with (what they perceive to be) men. Within their own 'circles' too.

I should maybe clarify at this point that my friendship group is largely LGBT. I drink on the 'gay scene' and as such most people I speak to are LGBT. I have 2 friends who 'identify' as women (and have gone through surgeries and such)

I haven't really gone into too much detail with people I know about it all as this is a relatively new thing for me (as I say, I found out on the Ada Wells threads on here, before that I was all 'yay, trans') but from what we have spoke about, it appears there are a lot of 'lesbian trans' who think other lesbian women should not turn down sex with them as doing so is transphobic and reducing them to their gentials. Oddly enough, none of my gay friends (who I have asked) have encountered anything even slightly similar from transmen. I know no transmen myself. I asked my best mate how he would feel if faced with a vagina on a guy he fancied...the reaction was actually hilarious.

So yeah, just among people I know (not saying this is the same among larger groups or anything, just personal) its only lesbians who are expected to...in effect...shag men.

I think sometimes how I would react in a similar situation and its difficult for me. I imagine being single again and 'pulling', taking the guy home and discovering he was a woman. I often wonder if transwomen see each other as women too. This would be for example..

Lesbian transwoman pulls girl she fancies. Takes her home, discovers a cock. Surely, the only acceptable reaction here would be to carry on regardless, as genitals and such do not matter. It would not make sense for original transwoman to be upset by deception, as she would agree that biology does not matter at all.

I have read, though I am not sure how true it is, that relationships between 2 transpeople are fairly rare. Why would this be, if identity trumps all else?

Cos it doesn't. And we all know it.
Sigh.

Another train of thought now relating to this...I have heard frequent 'jokes' among men that lesbians use dildos and such so why don't they just use the 'real thing' if they actually do like cock. I wonder if this line of thinking..is prominent in these 'transwomen' who do think lesbians should fuck them? Not entirely sure where I am going with this..but it seems a very..misogynistic way of thinking, yet again.

Re the cotton ceiling and why transwomen are so keen to sleep with lesbians, when I was first looking at this stuff and questioning the trans narrative I came across this late transitioning transwoman's blog:

www.tgforum.com/wordpress/index.php/the-cotton-ceiling/

They resist the penis. The penis to them is the Devil. Anything having to do with penises, they unequivocally oppose, regardless of whether it is exclusionary or irrational. They are gold star rad-fems hellbent on taking back the world from oppressive men.

They're lesbian feminists. Not everything is about you.

I will press on, however. I am no quitter. I am a rebel. I don’t accept things just because that’s “the way they are.” I will continue the quest for my fair maiden. The Cotton Ceiling must be broken. We are not perverted men seeking to rape lesbians and turn them into slaves to the patriarchy. We — ARE women. We ARE females. We ARE people.

Fairly dripping with male privilege and entitlement.

We are not perverted men seeking to rape lesbians and turn them into slaves to the patriarchy. We — ARE women. We ARE females. We ARE people.

--

So by this logic. 'They' (whoever agrees with this rapey logic) would be perfectly happy to shag a person with a cock themselves, as its nothing to do with biology...all in the head. I somehow doubt it...

Ugh that whole way of thinking actually makes me feel ill.

Amanda's blog is full of other gems:

I identify as a pansexual. I have newly classified myself as this having thought about who I like to date and who I am attracted to. That being said, l lean heavily towards women. Women were there before, women are here in my thoughts now. I am a walking example of how gender identity and sexual preference are separate. I like it. I like being a mind changer. I come from a long line of rebels. I like and have dated, men, women, tranwomen, transmen, lesbians, bisexuals, and other pansexuals. Cis women always seem to come out on top of the heap though. The look and feel of their bodies is just plain magical.

In other words, Amanda is allowed to differentiate and have a preference for female bodies, but lesbian women aren't.

They ARE people, I'll give them that.

I asked my best mate how he would feel if faced with a vagina on a guy he fancied...the reaction was actually hilarious

I asked my gay son whether he would consider a transman with a vagina as a sexual partner. He said something like 'no I'm a gay man, vaginas aren't my thing' - which is pretty much what you'd expect really. Then he googled cotton ceiling and his mind was blown.

" One was. She received a black eye."
So, lesbian physically assaulted for turning down sex with a male. We all know this one ladies -- it doesn't matter what your reason is (you've got bad breath/you're a spurs supporter/I've changed my mind/I don't want to do that/an unexpected penis etc etc etc), we have the right to say no without getting thumped. Except some people think consent no longer applies in certain cases, so it would seem. Which is very dangerous thinking, whoever is doing the thinking and whoever is doing the thumping.

One lesbian assaulted for turning someone down is one too many! Line in the sand. I feared it might be happening, and it is.

Hear hear.

I'm sure gay men turn down other gay men on a frequent basis based on genitalia (too big, too small, cut, uncut, too many piercings, whatever!) -- so turning someone down because they don't possess one (or it's made of rubber and is detachable) is just a logical extension of that. And ditto for lesbians as regards an unexpected penis. Saying we have to forget consent because of transphobia is dangerous, rapey thinking.

It is abuser logic, whichever way you slice it. No has to always mean no. You don't argue with people when they say they don't want to have sex with you.

And as we can see from Amanda's blog that I posted below, transwomen don't always hold themselves to the same standards. They are allowed to have a sexual preference for female bodies. Women aren't.

(you've got bad breath/you're a spurs supporter/I've changed my mind/I don't want to do that/an unexpected penis etc etc etc)

Indeed. I guess the answer could be to just say 'I changed my mind' instead of (guessing, don't know the situation inside out) 'wtf, I don't do men' or something, but why should the reason matter? WHY is anyone expected to buy into the 'female penis' thing? Its just nonsensical when you think about it properly. A female penis does not exist. A male vulva does not exist. A pregnant male human does not exist. Biology tells us this...its kind of indisputable. Gender is not the same as sex. The purposeful mixing up of the two lead to situations where lesbians are met with penises at unexpected moments, and this is fucking wrong.

As a side note...one of the women I was speaking of earlier is actually bi but only goes with women now due to a very bad experience with a bloke in her teenage years. This was one of the women (sadly) who was abused by 'friends' once word spread (which it shouldn't to start with...ffs.) about her turning down a woman with a penis. I cannot begin to imagine how scared she must have been when she realised that this woman was a guy. Even if said guy 'identified' as a woman...

It's awful that your friend had to put up with such misogynistic shit. Especially from people she considered friends.

Further clarification, I do not believe all transwomen are like this, or even most. However..it is the trans-narrative that has lead to situations like this happening in the first place. I ask anyone who says 'oh not all trans' or tries to trivialize this as a one off.. to answer me this..how much collateral damage is acceptable in this fight to spare feelings? My answer is none.

I agree anyone should have the right to refuse consent to anyone for whatever reason. But it really does need stressing that it's not just about what individuals you want to have sex with or otherwise, you should also be allowed to say that you're just not attracted to penises or vaginas, and that for you it is integral to your sexuality.

Just to add, from my time on the scene years ago, there were a few transwomen who identified as lesbians, but almost no one I knew would consider a post-op transwoman as a partner, and even fewer a pre-op or non-op. It wasn't even really discussed as regards pre-op, because everyone pretty much took it as read that they just didn't have the fun bits we liked! It was just taken as being totally bleedin' obvious. And the one would be gay transman that I knew didn't get anywhere, as far as I know. Again, they didn't have one very vital component that the chaps were into. Sympathy, politeness, even friendship, but that was as far as it went.

It's awful that your friend had to put up with such misogynistic shit. Especially from people she considered friends.

Yes, whats worse (for me personally, not for her obviously) is how this happened nearly 2 years back and I only found out about it a month ago. I knew she was assaulted when younger. I did not know anything about the recent problems until I specifically asked her about the subject. I felt fucking horrible that (she didn't say this but it was heavily inferred) she didn't feel able to speak to me about it incase I had the 'transphobe' reaction.

And that ^

Is one of the reasons I may appear 'militant' in posting about trans issues. I may actually have to namechange now as I am sure anyone who knows me could now work out who I am. While transpeople appear militant as its something personal to them...this is now something personal to me given it affects friends of mine. I guess at the same time there is a bit of self-hatred for being blind to it all for so long also.

When I first started becoming aware of all this I read about young libfem lesbians deciding not to date at all because they couldn't square their feelings about inclusivity with not wanting a penis in their bed. It was very sad.