Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

[neonrainbow]

Interesting point made above about why do we have separate toilets and is it because female bodily functions were historically seen as dirty.

It must be exhausting spending your whole life thinking every man is a potential rapist who is invading your space in order to attack you.

At what stage of transitioning is someone "allowed" to use a womans toilet according to the great and good of mumsnet?

What happened to live and let live eh?

[Beachcomber]

This will probably get deleted for not being Orwellian newspeak, but I'm going to say it anyway.

To the posters who don't understand why many women have an issue with this it is actually really straightforward and simple so I'm surprised that you don't understand.

Transwomen are male.

Girls and women have a right to female only spaces.

Transwomen in those spaces violates that right.

That is all. It is actually very very easy to understand. You, as an individual, not minding sharing toilets/showers/hospital wards/rape crisis facilities/women's refuges with men does not negate the right of girls and women in general having a right to those spaces as sex segregated. These spaces were fought for in order to protect female privacy, safety and dignity.

I read a detransitioning the other day about a MTT. He was born male then presented as a transwomen for about 20 years and now is back to presenting as male. This person said that they know deep down that they were male the whole time. I hope we hear more and more of these stories so that we can put down the kool aid. (As I read the story I felt angry for all the women that would have had to give up female space to this man in the 20 years he insisted on using female toilets, changing rooms, etc.)

[Beachcomber]

Detransitioning story

[CharlieSierra]

We've been made to feel weaker, vulnerable and dirtier (so embarrassed about ourselves) so therefore we need or special female safe spaces

What like women's shelters and rape centres?

[neonrainbow]

Where did i say yabu? Just because it's the feminist board do i have to post as a rampant feminist who can't see any other point of view but their own? Am i not allowed to join the discussion because i disagree with you?

I am a feminist. I also do not think trans people are an automatic threat to women.

[The2Ateam]

I have had this at work - twice in fact. I'm really not bothered. As long as no one (man or woman) can watch me on the toilet, why would I care? I wouldn't want to see a naked male body I.e. A penis in showers and changing room, but I also don't particularly like the women who walk around naked like they're in their own homes. To be fair, I doubt very much that anyone transitioning would want to be completely naked under those circumstances.

[ThatsWotSheSaid]

somedyke I meant that they have been treated with irrational disgust.

[IzzyIsBusy]

What happened to live and let live eh?

Nothing it still exsists however why should one party sacrafice?
A transwomen has used a male toilet their whole life. Why do they now need to use the female toilet?
They dont need sanpro products.
They dont need a cubicle to pee in and if they do male loos have them
Why is there the demand for women to accept men in toilets but not the demand for men to accepts transwomen in theirs? Why is there no campaign for men to be more accepting of other men?
Why no outrage that transwomen dont feel safe in mens toilets?

Donning a dress does not change your sex and it never will.

[VeryPunny]

We had a situation at work with a MTF and sharing a room with a woman at a conference. I'm an academic so sharing rooms at conferences is quite common due to budget constraints. My colleague was made to feel unreasonable for refusing to share a hotel room with someone with a penis.

I cycle to work and frequently get changed in front of the cubicles in order to not take up a cubicle. Damn skippy I would have problems with someone with a penis wandering in unannounced. We have notices up when male cleaners/workmen are around, so why do we have to accommodate a trans because they say so?

[CharlieSierra]

I wouldn't want to see a naked male body I.e. A penis in showers and changing room

Well tough, you have no choice. Get used to it.

[PoisonWitch]

Designated female spaces like refuges and rape crisis centres? They were set up by women against the patriarchy. We are close to losing the rights to keep them for women.

[neonrainbow]

I absolutely cannot see why changing a pad in a CUBICLE next to a trans person is a problem. It's not something to be embarrassed about. You're taking care of a bodily function in a place made for taking care of bodily functions which incidentally is what the trans person is also doing.

[Hellothereitsme]

I had his situation at my work. HR told us there was nothing we could do. Infact HR made the women who complained feel like troublemakers.

[natwebb79]

What Trifle said. This thread has made me feel a bit of despair. We have had transgender students at the school where I teach and our young adults have understood their needs and coped without any fuss. I thought we'd made a bit of progress.

[DollyBarton]

Trans people must have such complicated lives because of other people. A trans woman is still also a person. But that gets completely forgotten while women tear them down as not being women. I feel like they are being treated on this tread for the most part as nothing but a not-woman. If any trans women are reading this please realise that some people will see you as both a woman and a person.

[IzzyIsBusy]

It is not about embaressment!

Its about women losing the right to be heard and have what they feel/need/want trampled all over because this is what men have decided!!
If women lose the right to this private space then they will lose the right to all female spaces such as rape centres and womens refuges. That is the point.

[Stevefromstevenage]

I think that our open shower areas at work are going to present a bigger challenge than toilets. The changing area is completely open too. I do not have a problem with individual designed ungendered stalls for all showering or changing or toilets but there is definitely an issue regarding the current design for showering or changing purposes. A similar workplace is currently dealing with a trans person who plans to use the female changing rooms and shower facilities and a response to this request is currently being investigated. The transperson had refused any non gender facilities.

Here there is a self identification gender legal system so I do not see any way of stopping this legally but it will definitely have an impact.

[CharlieSierra]

neon do you honestly not see that it isn't just about someone in the next lavatory? If you accept they are a woman in the loos, you must accept they are a woman full stop. Are you ok with them being naked in the shower? It's just a shower? How about a women's shelter? A rape crisis centre? All ok because despite everything they are a woman, just like you?

[Amalfimamma]

Someone mentioned bruce jenner. Bruce is a MAN because

He has not had gender reassignment surgery
He has a fully functional penis
He fancies women
His DNA says so.


He is also considering design transitioning as he doesn't like being "a woman"

[LyndaNotLinda]

A transwoman standing up to piss with their or is is not redirecting the women around them. That snacks of goady fuckery to me. If they're so keen to be a woman and are suffering from dysphoria, why are they pissing in such a male way?

I find it difficult to believe that any of you would be happy for you and your daughters to share naked communal changing space with someone with a fully functioning penis.

[LumpySpacedPrincess]

My 11 year old had to pop to the loo the other day and clean her trousers as she had bled through, she's just started her periods and is getting to grips with the whole process. She deserves to do this without any men being present, transwomen are male. Men should be able to wear what the hell they like and other men who choose not to wear make up should be nice to them. Maybe we could tackle male violence then trans people would feel fine using the toilets that match their sex.

[Beachcomber]

I want female only toilets because I know for a fact that some men (and this includes the male subset of transwomen) are sexually excited and stimulated by seeing/hearing/being around girls and women urinating, defecating and dealing with menstrual flow. I also want female only spaces because rape, flashing, sexual harassment, sexual assault, voyeurism and secret photography/filming of girls and women.

No need to think all men are rapists. Or is anyone on this thread going to deny that the above happen and they happen at levels which make it 100% legitimate for women to want private space for them and their daughters in order to protect our dignity, privacy and bodily integrity.

I do not want to participate (particularly unknowingly) in male sexual stimulation and activity other than that of my chosen partners. I do not want men being able to enter and undress in the cubicle next to the one my 12 year old daughter is trying to deal with her period in. I do not want men undressing next to my 10 year old whilst she is peeing or getting changed.

[mycatwantstokillme1]

I agree with the poster that said this thread made her feel sad.
This seems to be a lot of hostility, from the beginning with the OP saying

there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.

Winchester Woman, 'like turkeys voting for Christmas' because someone trans wants to use a toilet next to me? And to the posters who said they didn't want to share a toilet with a man who pisses standing up. Those of us who have sons, or male relatives do this all the time.

I don't know what it's like to be born being one sex and feeling that I should have been born the other but I'd imagine it's no fun. To be brave enough to start living as a trans person is huge and there's such negativity on this thread it's shocking.

There are more important things in the world to be distressed about. Trident, Trump getting in, Corbyn NOT getting in, children being raped and abused in care homes, seeing family members ill, people not having enough money to feed their kids. I'm not going to get in a state about someone possibly in the next cubicle to me at work being trans, I'm only in there to pee and then I'm out.

[Bambambini]

The new direction for trans theory is that surgery and passing, dressing femininely, make up etc isn't important. The idea that they gave to look like women and pass is changing which if you support that men are women and their brain and whole essence is what is important in making them women ( not their body and sexual organs, chromosomes etc) - then it makes senses.

They think and feel like women - therefore they already and always have been women. This will lead to less surgery and possibly taking hormones - which will be better, safer and cheaper all round for the individual except those with severe body dysphoria.

so really, it will mean unisex pretty much for everything eventually. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing I'd society can stop being so violent and mysoginistic.