Transwoman using women's loos at work

[CharlieSierra]

I've posted a bit about this over the past few days on the MN response to Spartacus thread in site stuff, but someone suggested I start a new thread about it here.

Earlier this week I was surprised to encounter an apparently male person in the women's loos at work. I understand from a colleague that they have just started the transitioning process, and it appears from all the research I have done that there is no way to avoid them invading our space. It would be discriminatory to prevent them.
We also have showers, presumably the same applies. I plan to take it up with HR, since none of the women in the building were told this could happen, but I haven't managed to speak to anyone about it yet.
I feel angry, powerless, silenced. It's obvious using the next cubicle that they use the toilet as a man would. We will have to adapt our behaviour, hide any discomfort so as not to make them feel uncomfortable. There are unisex accessible loos on every floor, but no, they want to be in ours.

[Meadows76]

And I can't understand why every woman doesn't. Why every single woman doesn't see what it stands for, and loudly and vociferously say NO. it's just a toilet. What does it stand for? Last time I went it was just somewhere to wee

[WinchesterWoman]

But hey if you have a daughter that's her brave new world.

Doesn't the idea scare you that she could one day be the lone woman in a swimming pool shower with three fully cocked men ?

And doesn't the idea that she couldn't even complain about it without being accused of 'hate-crimery' horrify you?

I've got a daughter and it scares and horrifies me.

[WinchesterWoman]

It's not just a toilet. It's a precedent and everything changes.

[ThatsWotSheSaid]

Going to the loo and the noises that accompany it are a bit awkward regardless of the sex or gender of the others around.
I think you feel disgusted by this person and are seeking to justify it.
I can't help but think this is how gay people have been treated for decades.
You can use the unisex loo too which presumably is a single toilet if you that upset by it.

[DollyBarton]

I'd be fine with it. I also think this is a woman we are talking about. And finally I wonder whether we might be all just brainwashed into thinking we need private places to pee and do our secret girl stuff away from men, probably originally due to men thinking women were dirty (periods) and needed to segregate us for 'modesty' and now we all think we need this too.

[WinchesterWoman]

I can't believe women don't mind and can't see it for what it is. Unbelievable. I'm going to the gym. It's unbelievable.

[Bambambini]

I'd actually like a referendum or proper survey done to see how comfortable people, especially women and girls, feel about this - and how far this inclusion of males in previously female domains and spaces should go. Both sides calmly putting forth the concerns, views and arguments so that the public, especially women and girls know what we are actually talking about and what totally accepting men as women actually means.

I think the majority of the public don't really know much about it.

[DollyBarton]

Also a lot of the things people are trotting out have been said historically in relation to black people, gay people, women! I don't think we need to wonder what the future generations will criticise us for.

[WinchesterWoman]

Pisses me off this

it's like turkeys voting for Christmas

[WinchesterWoman]

You know all this comes down to, all the academic conversations about queer theory and the definition of womanhood, that people dismiss as irrelevant, what this al comes down to in the end is

women losing the right to challenge men anywhere, or at all

[Beachcomber]

I think I would go to HR and tell them that a male employee is using the women's toilets. I wouldn't even mention trans.

Be very clear that the issue is maleness not transness. (If pushed I would state that I have no issue with transmen using female facilities - that this is nothing to do with the person being trans.)

If HR try to tell you that the person is female ask them how that can be when you can hear them peering standing up using their penis. I would also ask HR to guarantee (they can't) that this person is not in anyway getting voyeuristic pleasure from being in women's space whilst they perform bodily functions.

I think unfortunately you won't get anywhere but I would want to say something on principle. Sorry that you are in this position. This is going to happen more and more unfortunately.

[Amalfimamma]

Does said person take hormone Blockers? Or is he just2 'experimenting' his transition at the moment?

If he is not taking hormone Blockers and his dick is fully functional he should not be Allen in the female loos. It doesn't matter who or what he identifies as, who he fancies or what sexual positions he likes in bed. He is a MAN with full time functional sexual organs and therefore a threat to women in a female space.

HE can fuck right off and use the unisex toilet if uncomfortable in the men's loos.

[CharlieSierra]

what this al comes down to in the end is women losing the right to challenge men anywhere, or at all

Of course. Very clear, very simple. You would think.

[ThatsWotSheSaid]

if you have a daughter then that's her brave new world
I hope my daughter will grow up open minded and if she or my DS is trans I hope ideas like those expressed in this tread have changed.
it's like turkeys voting for Christmas so anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid?

This tread makes me sad.

[Amalfimamma]

I'm probably missing the point but it's women whom was born male makeing the long and difficult process of turning HER self into female and there's bitching about that she using the lady's loos and changeing area.
Does that long and difficult process include changing DNA?

[NiceCuppaTeaAndASitDown]

Also a lot of the things people are trotting out have been said historically in relation to black people, gay people, women! I don't think we need to wonder what the future generations will criticise us for.

I agree 100% with this. I wonder if this is a more generational thing where younger people are less concerned and older people are more?

I suppose it might also get more complicated where religion is involved - would an orthodox Jewish or Muslim woman be more likely to object than an atheist? Are there grounds for a separate space in the Torah or Quran?

Lastly, just because I'm not bothered by shared gender spaces, does that give me the right to minimise the concerns of people who are?

And at the very least WinchesterWoman, you've made me think. I can't say I agree with you but it's certainly a more complex matter than my gut feel of 'why on earth would anyone object?'

[neonrainbow]

They're not harming you though. What do you think this person is going to do? They're just trying to have a wizz in peace. When our toilets at work have been out of order occasionally the men share the women's toilets. No big deal. Theres cubicles for a reason. I think it's ridiculous that you're not worried about lesbians jumping you but you think this trans person will jump you? Sounds like you're just prejudiced to me. You're probably paying more attention to them pissing than they are to you! And why is it horrible to stand up to piss in a womans toilet!? Don't you ever hover?!

[IzzyIsBusy]

Why can't I be private from men for five minutes at work while I'm peeing.

Because men wont allow it.

Women have no rights to challange men. No rights to keep the spaces designated to them based on their sex. No rights to privacy. We must accept the changes and how we feel must not matter because all that matters is the men and how they feel.

Is pretty much the answer to that question.

[insancerre]

They should just make every toilet everywhere unisex and accessible to all
Then we wouldn't have all this hysteria

Some toilets have male cleaners, does that bother on as well?

[Meadows76]

It's not just a toilet. It's a precedent and everything changes. I do t see the big deal. It IS just a toilet. So what if things change.

[IzzyIsBusy]

Some toilets have male cleaners, does that bother on as well?

Male cleaners close the loos when they clean them. There is also a sign on the door indicating that a man is cleaning them. They do not clean while women are using the facilities.

[DollyBarton]

Has anyone ever wondered if all this 'designated female spaces' stuff is the result of male domination and not the cure for it?

[DollyBarton]

ie. We've been made to feel weaker, vulnerable and dirtier (so embarrassed about ourselves) so therefore we need or special female safe spaces.

[SomeDyke]

"I can't help but think this is how gay people have been treated for decades."
And you'd be wrong. l've been 'mis-gendered' loads of times whilst entering the ladies, but once they realise I'm just a butch female, no problem. Perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be if a camp gay man or drag queen used the ladies, and I don't think you'd be accused of homophobia if you objected if they were in the ladies but instead we'd be asking about the extent of male homophobia that they didn't feel safe in the gents.
Stop trying to co-opt others struggles.

[CharlieSierra]

They're not harming you though. What do you think this person is going to do

I don't think this individual person is going to do anything to me. I am concerned about women being sidelined and silenced. A number of people have made the point.

This is FWR btw not AIBU.