Breastfeeding and attachment parenting - your thoughts

[awfulpersonme]

I've not posted on this board before but have lurked a lot.

I'm interested to see what you think about two things I have thought about a lot in recent weeks - breastfeeding and attachment parenting.

I breastfeed my 5 month old and as such was on a few Facebook groups for support. On these groups I have seen comments stating that women who ff should not have children, that formula should only be available on prescription for babies who need it medically, and asking for tips on how to persuade their female friends and relatives to breastfeed their babies. These groups are largely AP based.

So:

1. Is pressurising women to breastfeed essentially anti feminist? Isn't it just another way of telling us what we should and shouldn't do with our bodies, another way of making female bodies public property?

2. aren't a lot of the attachment parenting principles essentially quite anti-woman? Every AP group I've seen seems to place a mother's need for outside stimulation, sleep, and good mental health as far, far below the needs of her children (at all ages, not just newborns and young babies). The idea that you must be around your baby 24/7 just seems to me to be another way of keeping women firmly "in their place".

What do you all think??

Breastfeeding is talked about like its special, like its hard work, and formula is talked about like it's easier, and giving up. There's only one type of person who benefits from the conversation being forced into this limited debate, and that's the formula companies

Breastfeeding is hard work. My life and my relationship with my baby improved immeasurably when I gave it up.

What type of conversation do you think we should be having ? One that tells lies about breastfeeding?

Who do you think benefits from the lie that breastfeeding is not hard work or that every woman can do it?

The idea that someone could not have enough milk (statistically less than 1% of women) or that it's just too hard, is down to lack of communication between women and training of health care staff

Bollocks. Utter bollocks. I went through weeks of a constantly hungry baby not gaining weight, feeding virtually round the clock, not being able to leave house because all I could do was , attempting to express so that I might get some sleep and producing almost nothing.

On top of that was the feeling sick, because of oxytocin ( a symptom not ever mentioned) and the being reduced to being nothing but a failing milch cow.

Back in the day when I was breastfeeding DD I always felt it was actually the more convenient option (apart from being better for her and me, obviously). All that sterilising bottles sounded like so much hard work, not the easy way out!

BUT of course it's always the mother's choice, no way should she be shamed or pressurised by others in either direction. Her body, after all. I do feel a bit sad that so many younger mothers (like my niece) have automatically used formula. But wouldn't dream of interfering. Formula on prescription? Ludicrous!

I'm so glad those days are behind me. I loved having babies but the first one was a minefield of people lending me books and telling me what I should be doing.

I was so happy when I discovered that I wasn't this, that or the other but just me. A little of this and a little of that and whatever else worked.

I don't know if rigid formulas of parenting styles are anti-feminist or not, but they can certainly be demoralizing and restrictive for those who don't fit them.

Like anything done to excess, with no leeway, it's usually not always very good for you.

I think the whole ethos of breastfeeding comes with AP stuff and its wrong.

If I was deciding whether to breastfeed and pregnant for the first time and joined one of those groups I would shit myself.

IMO they go further to anti- normalise breastfeeding.

Not really sure about feminism though. Haven't really considered it although some of the pressure felt by new mums to breastfeed by professionals definitely throws it out the window. But then as a nation we aren't great at it so I can kind of understand a bit.

Hmmmm interesting thread.

The next person who tells me I "have" to stick to breastfeeding is going to get a brick to the face. I haven't thought about it as a feminist issue, though that may have something to do with it. The people I'm hearing these comments from are midwives and doulas who seem to think that their job entitles them to stomp over everyone else's opinion.

My DD isn't yet a month old so I'm aware that breastfeeding will probably become easier in time, but for now I don't enjoy it and I'm allowed to feel that way. I don't need the unwarranted input of people who think they know my boobs better than I do.

Fortunately, the majority of people in my life are wholly supportive.

'Breast is best' was a tagline invented by formula companies.

'The mommy wars' was again invented by formula companies. That clip that was doing the rounds a while back - baby wearing bf mums looking down on ff, pram using mums - was an advert. For Similac. The PR company won awards for that advert. Sales of formula increased across the board after that advert (Similac wasn't mentioned in the ad so all formula companies benefited).

Discussions just like this one - setting up parenting as some kind of head to head, where people are encouraged to perceive that people making different choices judge them as wrong and carrying shame...feed directly into the culture formula companies are trying to encourage.

And why are formula companies so invested in this head to head combative style of parenting discussion? Because it increases sales by encouraging you into one camp or the other, preferably before even trying breastfeeding. But more importantly it focuses the debate on the parents, on their choices, rather than the formula companies and their standards.

Why is formula not made to a higher standard than the bare minimum? Why is follow on milk even made, and if there is demand, why is it made with cheap casein filler rather than to the same high standards as first milk? Why is crappy stuff like indigestible forms of DHA added to formula just so they can use the tagline added DHA?

As long as shame on individual parents is seen to be part of the discussion about formula the formula companies will continue to hide behind it. Mothers who don't breastfeed are being used as a human shield.

I breastfeed for years, if I ever have another child I'll be formula feeding from day one, no questions asked!

I'm not smart enough to be a part of this conversation, but thank you for starting it. Very interesting reading!

Batteries I don't think it's fair to say women 'perceive' being judged. That implies it doesn't happen. All mothers are judged for something. Anything, really. Yes there's cases where people are paranoid but there are definitely some women/men who judge and shame women for parenting choices, especially feeding ones.

Point taken Special. But if I had a pound for the number of times someone on Facebook groups was told the risks of formula feeding (without any judgey wording) and responded 'don't judge me!' I'd be rich.

Judging the poor standards of formula manufacture, the poor designs of most bottles, and being aware of the risks of artificial feeding is not equal to judgement of formula feeding mums. Yet time and time again it is seen as such.

It isn't bollocks, really, before formula everyone breastfed. It's the biological design of the human race. If it was so bloody hard we'd have died out as a species.

Anything is hard when you go into it with different expectations. All of the talk about 'getting your life back' 'getting adult time', that's just not part of the reality of having children, and so we are taught to feel like failures of our baby is seen as demanding, or not sleeping through. Barriers are put in place by society that directly benefit formula companies, like babies should sleep in a cot, when actually being skin to skin with mum is what triggers milk production. Babies should feed every 3-4 hours, when actually an hourly feed is perfectly normal to get milk supply going. Babies come out expecting constant warmth, food, and the touch of their mother, it's what they've had for 9 months. Everything we are told goes directly against what our bodies and babies bodies are designed to do.

If everyone understood the idea of the fourth trimester, and that having kids and successful breastfeeding does depend on supporting mum with that, our breastfeeding rates in the developed world wouldn't be so incredibly shocking. It is not a coincidence that any country that allows formula advertising has poor breastfeeding rates.

Yes it is absolutely anti feminist, sidelines men completely and sets women up against each other. It also isn't likely to produce any discernable better outcomes for children in terms of secure attachment. So long as children are looked after sensitively and have their needs met consistently, they will be OK.

This type of extreme behaviour to promote attachment is useful for kids who have experienced early trauma or a change of caregiver, but for most children it's just not necessary.

I think AP actually isn't anything to do with children, or wanting better outcomes for them-THE WHOLE POINT is to oppress women.

Also I dislike this idea that feminism = men in skirts. Menstruation, pregnancy, breastfeeding - they aren't anti woman. But they can restrict a woman from competing in a patriarchal society that assumes male as default.

I won't argue with you there Batteries, I view it as the flip side of no realisticbreastfeeding support coin; women aren't told how much BFing can hurt much like the bad sides of formula feeding are minimised.

Moo yes, and how many infants died, exactly? It was the norm, but babies dying was the norm too!

Like I said, I BFed my twins for three years, but I'll be formula feeding the next one (if we have another, DS1 is adopted so obviously I didn't BF him) I understand the fourth trimester. I just don't feel that breastfeeding was the best choice for me, hence not doing it again. So it's not 'support' if what you mean is even if some mother's don't feel that way, everyone around them should 'support' them into doing it.

In fact, that's pretty much what this thread is about. That with motherhood, support means coercion to do things a different way than what is best for herself.

Slow type But trying to get my feminist on and feel like I am smart enough to join in >confidence issues

One of my pet hates is when rabid breastfeeding advocates talk about the supposed faff of formula. An ordinary dishwasher cleans bottles perfectly, and mixing takes seconds. Quite a different thing to spending up to an hour breastfeeding every other hour while staring at a growing pile of filthy dishes I didn't have time to deal with and crying, like I did for five months before starting mixed feeding.

think AP actually isn't anything to do with children, or wanting better outcomes for them-THE WHOLE POINT is to oppress women.

I am a woman who does AP. How am I oppressed, exactly? How am I oppressing others?

As I said earlier in the thread, I don't deny the existence of some people with very rigid and oppressive views who wrap up said lunacy in AP. But it's hardly as if this unique to one parenting philosophy, and nor is it a fundamental part of AP.

I find it intensely irritating that every time this subject comes up on Mumsnet, there are mothers who actually do AP pointing out what they do and why they do it, and their voices are totally ignored in favour of an echo chamber about how awful/ridiculous/oppressive it is, based on the detailed experience of "well I read this anti-AP article once and I saw somebody on Facebook being preachy about putting babies in nursery, so I am now an expert!"

If you really think I'm being oppressed, then feel free to enlighten me, I suppose? But be at least vaguely aware that your understanding of what AP is/does/says may not match up to the understanding of people who are actually doing it.

53rd- I'm not basing my comments on one reading the odd article on the internet - I'm a children's social worker with one degree in social work and another in psychology. I feel reasonably confident that I can call myself "an expert" on this topic as the forming of secure attachment is something I have to assess for different parents, several times a week, and am often required to give evidence on in court.
I obviously don't know exactly what you do in your parenting - but what i can tell you is that there really is no reason to think that baby wearing, extended breast feeding, co-sleeping etc will produce better outcomes than generally sensitive and responsive parenting.

I think AP actually isn't anything to do with children, or wanting better outcomes for them-THE WHOLE POINT is to oppress women.
I don't see how. AP is for parents, not just mothers. My husband is doing everything I'm doing, with the exception of breastfeeding.

All I do is reassure my kids and keep them close, set boundaries gently, so that they're not scared or hurt by my parenting.

I also have a full time job, and huge career plans.

I consider myself educated, and when I fell pregnant I read a lot of research into attachment and child health. I know without a doubt that my choices are best for my children. I was let down, because breastfeeding was agony for 6 months, and the correct help would have sorted that out. But all I ever got was 'give her a bottle', and that shit has to stop.

Yes it is absolutely anti feminist, sidelines men completely and sets women up against each other.*

I couldn't disagree more.
I AP, breastfeed and I am a feminist.

See Moo, that's the difference I think. You know you made the best choices - For your children. You're not saying that your choices are the best for everybody's children, which I think is what a lot associate with APing, because there is such a vocal minority.

TBH I have no idea what 'sort'of parent I am. I get confused!

Lots of interesting comments, just catching up now while DS is feeding ().

To be perfectly clear, I do not think breastfeeding is anti feminist. I do not think supporting breastfeeding is anti feminist. I think the NHS give out horrendous bfeeding advice despite allegedly supporting it. I find it terrible that many women take such advice and stop bfeeding when they actually want to continue and it isn't necessary to stop. I'm training to become a peer supporter.

What I do think is anti woman is staunch bfeeding advocates telling women how they must breastfeed, how formula is poisonous and evil, when they have no insight into why these women do not want to breastfeed. In fact the reason is irrelevant. If she doesn't want to that should be respected.

Moo bfeeding is the biological norm but before decent formula was invented many babies used to die because they could not latch correctly, had tongue tie etc. People forget this.

Re: AP, I'm afraid I do still think the bones of it is anti woman. I won't be going back to work after DS, but more for me than for him.

I feel reasonably confident that I can call myself "an expert" on this topic as the forming of secure attachment is something I have to assess for different parents

Which makes you an expert on attachment, yes. It doesn't make you an expert on what people do/think/believe under the umbrella term of "attachment parenting", which is my point.

what i can tell you is that there really is no reason to think that baby wearing, extended breast feeding, co-sleeping etc will produce better outcomes than generally sensitive and responsive parenting

I agree with that already. Attachment parenting is not, despite what a lot of people believe, a list of strict instructions laying out the single correct method of how you must feed/transport/carry a baby. Even Sears, who I agree and disagree with in about equal amounts, doesn't say you have to breastfeed, you have to co-sleep, you have to use a sling. It is more about the general principles of responsiveness to the child's needs, with things like slings etc suggested as tools that can help. (Again, even Sears says this. Even Attachment Parenting International's principles of attachment parenting say this, if you're looking for something like the official AP line on it.)

See, this is what I mean. You believe that my chosen parenting style is anti-feminist and sidelines men, but your understanding of my chosen parenting style is more like a caricature than the reality.

If you're interested in what the reality actually looks like, I think Attachment Parenting International's principles are broadly accepted and a fairly good descriptor:

• Prepare for pregnancy, birth, and parenting.
• Feed with love and respect.
• Respond with sensitivity.
• Use nurturing touch.
• Ensure safe sleep, physically and emotionally.
• Provide constant, loving care.
• Practice positive discipline.
• Strive for balance in personal and family life.

I don't see what's oppressive or anti-feminist about that, in theory or in the practice of how me and my husband (who certainly doesn't consider himself totally sidelined...) parent.

I don't see how men are sidelined - my DH is always helping with the parenting in some fashion. When DS1 was a baby, he did everything apart from lactate.

When DTs were small, it was trickier because we had 3 under 20 months but he still pulled his weight just as much as I did.

I've never seen people IRL call formula "poisonous" or "evil". A lot of the time people's anger is directed towards the formula industry which is sneaky.

Being a working mother is the hardest thing I've ever done. I feel like I'm not good enough at work or at home. But that's about something wider in society, I can't afford to stay at home until my children go to school much as I'd like to.

Thanks for posting on this thread MooCow, I completely agree with you. BF is the biologically norm and bf and continuing to do it beyond the first few weeks should not and does not interfere with being s feminist. I am the main breadwinner, gender roles reversed in this house, and yet I still bf my toddler and we are relatively AP in approach though I hate that label. We do that cos it works for us (mostly!). For me AP stuff apart from bf can be done by either parent and should not mean the mother is stuck with the kids always.