Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

[MrsToddsShortcut]

While I can see what she is trying to do, is the concept of 'nice'/'good' porn still not skirting around the same ballpark as all the hideous, damaging degrading stuff? It's still effectively saying porn is okay. Or would you say this is closer to erotic writing, I.e no real people involved? Is it just the wide end of a very nasty wedge? Genuinely not sure how I feel about this.

Huff post article about Math magazine

MostlyHet
Yes, subverting all those ridiculous tropes is great fun. And I like to think that perhaps it gives young teenagers a different perspective to the norm - especially all the poor American ones with their lack of sex ed.
And oh... Marriage Law fics... A person has to be a very skilled writer to strike the right plot, tone, and characterisation to make such a fic work without being infuriatingly awful. I don't know if I've come across one yet, tbh.
But yes - there seems to be a very strong need among women to frame their own desire as external to themselves, or as a result to something forced upon them. And that comes through in forced marriage, rape, "trapped together," and "hero forced to rape heroine" fics.

Honestly I think it's because the cultural subconscious conception of females' role in sex (if that mess even makes sense,) is to view sex as inherently in opposition to women's desires. So even when women do want it, they express that desire in the terms they're familiar with, of not wanting it.

I think places like the US where women are expected to play "hard to get" especially suffer from this view of sex. It may sound ridiculous, but I really do feel like women are taught as a class, to some extent or another, to view sex as dangerous, undesirable - and with slut shaming etc - something a woman should resist lest she become "lesser" for embracing it.

(I also think this is partly why gay male romances are so popular among females, because it allows one to entirely avoid that cognitive dissonance around sex.)

Yes, slash (gay romances, predominantly MM) is fascinating isn't it? I grew to love it through the fics that are written to avoid cognitive dissonance and allow women space to explore what a relationship of genuine equals looks like. But I've noticed even that isn't immune to the whole dominance/submission thing - trying to shoehorn repressive gender roles into slash. Not my fandom, but there was a major debacle a few years ago in the Sherlock fandom with people having huge rows about whether one character was inherently and naturally meant to "top" (i.e. be the partner doing the penetrating). Ignoring the fact that many gay men don't even have penetrative sex, and where they do, as one (male gay) fanfic writer put it, often the choice in RL comes down to "who ate chipotle last night". Then there's the weird thing of "alpha-omega" fics, which are basically a sci-fi trope where you take all the worst aspects of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" and apply them to gay relationships (complete with a side order of "rape where the hero can't help himself" brought on by "heat cycles"). It's as if rape culture and the porn culture of women's submission is so culturally pervasive that some women writers can't even conceive of male gay partnerships working any other way.

And of course, I also have a bit of an issue with slash actually stemming from the epic Bechdel test failure of most of popular culture - even when there is a het relationship in the original source work, the woman is so often a cardboard cutout labelled "love interest" that if you want to explore a relationship where the protagonists have fully developed characters and a genuine emotional connection driven by their personalities and shared experiences, you're going to turn not to the hero and their cardboard cutout female love interest, but to the hero and their male best buddy.

(Though there's also the aspect, as a friend who writes Marvel slash puts it, of "one hot male good, two hot males better.")

I agree with the pervasiveness so strongly - which is why I don't think visual porn can be feminist. No matter how hard we try, we're all so culturally indoctrinated by a misogynistic view of sex that even feminist attempts at porn end up tainted by misogyny. Which imo isn't so bad when it's written erotica and clearly fictitious, but is when it's actual people performing the roles.
Oh, the Sherlock fandom...I've found a few fantastic and interesting slash love stories, but also quite a few ABOs, which...don't interest me. As you say, it's a return to the dominant "male", submissive "female" dynamic.
You've hit the nail on the head with how female love interests so often being shallow and two dimensional - it can be very frustrating, in that it shows how terribly women are portrayed. But Bucky and Steve (for eg) are both portrayed with depth, complexity, and chemistry, which is why Stucky makes such a wonderful romantic pairing.
But your friend is absolutely right!
Really though, as I said, the fact that there are still so many issues that creep into even in written erotica that attempts to conciously be feminist, is good evidence toward feminist pornography being an impossibility.
It's like...if you all live at the bottom of the sea, (patriarchy,) everything is going to be wet, (steeped in misogyny,) whether you like it or not. You have to get onto land (abolish patriarchy,) before you can make anything dry (non-misogynistic.)
And that's my dreadful metaphor for the day

Just wanted to chip in to say thanks for a really interesting discussion about fanfic, which I know pretty much nothing about

My interest is piqued, not particularly from a porn/erotica standpoint, but it sounds like there's some really interesting stuff going on in that area, and I'm intrigued.

And a big YES! to this bit: It's like...if you all live at the bottom of the sea, (patriarchy,) everything is going to be wet, (steeped in misogyny,) whether you like it or not. You have to get onto land (abolish patriarchy,) before you can make anything dry (non-misogynistic.)

I too think that's a brilliant metaphor, Missie (I shall steal it asap... oops, I mean appropriate it in a respectful sort of way ).

I'm glad we've piqued your interest, Felas - because it is fascinating from an intellectual perspective (even though a lot is badly written and ill-thought-out), precisely because it gives a snapshot of women capturing, appropriating, reinventing and retelling popular culture in a female-dominated space - and throws up so many fascinating issues, like "this space is female dominated, but still filled with the male gaze", "this is a gay relationship, but a female author is applying sexist tropes about dominance and submission (not genuine BDSM, but rather one partner has to be weaker and in need of looking after etc) to it", "this woman is eroticising rape... why would a woman do this?".

I second everything Mostly says about fanfiction; the world of fandom and fanfiction is a fascinating female-dominated sub-culture, and it actually has a lot of aspects (especially in the way it interacts with patriarchal culture,) that would be interesting to study and examine.

Haha, I'm glad the analogy made sense! Please do feel free to nick off with it

bitof I'm finding your contributions really frustrating because you started off defending mainstream porn producers who were "ethical" and have moved your position to including literature in porn, some kind of ethical porn that doesn't yet exist. At the same time trying to make out we all want all porn banned which is absolutely not what anyone has said. A couple of people have said they'd like mainstream filmed porn banned but not all porn including literature.

As some of us are writing erotic literature, wanting that banned would be quite hypocritical.
When I talk about porn, I talk about films involving real people.

I'm sorry Felas I don't think I ever defended mainstream porn. I'll go back and check. I think I have been clear I am proposing that some kink and feminist porn can be made ethnically. I did not bring up the issue of literature but think it is a fascinating offshoot and have tried to include it in the debate.

I have been told all porn is mainstream and cannot be made ethically. Here is a quote from makelovenotporn.tv. real people submit written or filmed porn and then they:

"review every video submission to make sure it's #realworldsex before deciding to publish. So please make sure whatever you send our way is consensual, and captured in a contextualized, cliche-free #realworld way."

If it does not meet their standards it is not published.

Many women( mostly younger women) watch porn. Surveys indicate many young women watch porn alone. Fact.
In real life do we say to these women:
A - "you shouldn't want this, you should feel guilty"
B - "here is a guilt free alternative"
C - " as a feminist you should feel particularly guilty "

Telling people what they 'should' want sexually and what they 'should' like is all about control. I think women's sexuality is controlled by 'bad' porn but isn't it equally controlled by banning all porn?

In relation to literature I mentioned the role of domme in BDSM etotic fiction. A domme is women who takes on the classical dominant role. So it's a nice little role reversal. Subverting the trope so to speak and this is becoming more common in mainstream erotica. Tip of the iceberg possibly. I bet there is some really interesting fanfic in this area.

mission great analogy.

Actually I said mainstream porn producers. I meant people like Tristan Taormino.

I think women's sexuality is controlled by 'bad' porn but isn't it equally controlled by banning all porn?

Unless "all porn" in your definition includes the sexual fantasies a woman has in her own head, no.
And no feminist wants to ban erotic literature.

I bet there is some really interesting fanfic in this area.

Actually, there isn't that much, at least in the fandoms I read. Loads of "maledom portrayed as natural order of things", stuff, though.

Tristan Taormino has made approx 24 porn videos - l think that classes her as niche. She is more famous for her books and her efforts to educate via YouTube.
Yes, as previously discussed, there is one negative story about her work and that story does not contain the voice of the 'injured party'. Oh and apparently she doesn't pay as well as mainstream producers.

Now can someone tell me what advice we give to young women who in increasing numbers choose to watch and enjoy porn.

I will start by saying telling young people not to do something doesn't always work.

Well I have been off looking at fanfic.

You lot may think I'm the Pervert in Chief because I look at porn but let me tell you that Harry Potter is a dirty,dirty boy. Good grief!

Anyway off to see what Ron has been up to.

Contemplates name change to NewPervertInChief.

Yup a friend of mine described AO3 (Archive of Our Own) as "dumpster diving in the collective subconscious". There's probably a kink for everyone out there... from the harmless but weird through to the "hell, women fantasise about THAT?"

Ha, if you really want to know what people (probably mostly women, but it's even more anonymous than AO3) fantasise about, have a look at the Hobbit Kink Meme on Livejournal. (Have the brain bleach ready, though, this one isn't the dumpster, it's the sewer.)

Ah, Durincest... and that's only the tip of the iceberg. (0ooerr missus, that has sparked a line of thought about some of the cliches of sex writing used in slash fiction, but I won't go there, I won't I won't I won't - bet Vestal can fill in the gaps in my thought processes).

And then there's some of the stuff in the Marvel Cinematic universe. There's stuff in there where the plot synopsis has me reaching for the brain bleach and thinking "oh my god why?" and "how do I forget I saw that?" and "you know I was complaining about that gen (general as in U rated) author being about as exciting as watching magnolia paint dry while dressed in wincyette pyjamas - well I take it all back, I want to wrap her fluffly little stories round me like a comfort blanket and keep the night light on..."

You're actually very unlikely to find domme roles in erotic fanfiction, Bit, at least in the variety of fandoms I frequent. Domme roles seem to be more a male gaze thing, in my experience. You're more likely to find a female writer creating male/male (slash) dom/sub smut (In the Marvel Universe, Loki features frequently in both bottom and top roles, Harry/Draco features this dynamic often, and Sherlock/Watson.)
Although some writers (like myself) do rather love tormenting our male characters in het fics, it's usually not the female character doing the tormenting, and the fics are what's called hurt/comfort.

MostlyHet AO3 is much wilder than fanfiction.net due to there being less rules around fics (not that fanfiction.net enforces them,) and has waaay more m/m fics. I frequent and write on both, as AO3 has more Marvel and Dragon Age, for instance, and ff.net has more Harry Potter and Firefly.
It's really interesting, slash fiction. It's generally women writing, and so you get to see how they/we perceive sexual interactions very clearly. It's disappointing how often the dynamics are unequal; women as a class have been very thoroughly programmed to find misogyny in sex arousing, in my opinion.

gulps, hobbits???????

You lot may think I'm the Pervert in Chief because I look at porn but let me tell you that Harry Potter is a dirty,dirty boy. Good grief!

You're telling me. Why did I look? I used to like reading those books to my nephew and now they're ruined. RUINED!

Bitofacow does agreeing to differ mean I can't answer any of your questions?

If it doesn't then...

"Now can someone tell me what advice we give to young women who in increasing numbers choose to watch and enjoy porn." How do you know how many women watch it, want to watch it or enjoy it?

Why don't you tell them it hurts women and it's toxic.

Because simply telling teenagers something is bad is not always successful, e.g. drugs, smoking, alcohol, swimming with no life guards, unprotected sex etc

Telling adults to be careful around fanfic doesn't always work The ghost and I now now what Harry does in his spare time.

Because simply telling teenagers something is bad is not always successful, e.g. drugs, smoking, alcohol, swimming with no life guards, unprotected sex etc

Not always, but we still try. And actually, in Europe, telling teenagers to not have unprotected sex seems to work rather nicely. At least compared to the teenage pregnancy rates in the US where they have abstinence only "sex ed".

Of course, it helps if the parents don't do those things. Getting teenagers to do what they are told , not what they are shown, is always difficult.
So, first step, don't watch porn. Second step, don't tolerate porn use in your partner. Third step, tell children that porn harms women and is toxic before they are old enough to have friends who watch porn.

Vestal - And that's the point most European countries have not gone for a flat out "don't have sex it's bad." Europeans have compromised, "yes you can/will/do have sex so make it safe". This compromise has worked. The crux of the issue was whether to have sex or not. Once it was agreed they probably would have sex we educated them to make it safe.

Contrast this to some US states where abstinence is taught "don't have sex until you are married" the prohibition message has failed spectacularly.

That is my point. Is it better to accept that teenagers will use porn and offer them ethical strategies (equivalent of safe sex) rather than just saying don't?

A flat out "no" serves to antagonise young people, they then listen to nothing you say. A flat out "don't" or saying "what you are doing is bad" halts all conversation. They feel guilt so they won't discuss issues and carry on doing what they were doing but in private. They consider you as "not knowing how it is" and any other messages are lost.

As an aside - I would never tell my partner "I will not tolerate that" that is a very long way from the type of relationship I have or would ever want to have.

But I still think you're conflating two issues, Bit. I honestly get the impression that you think being anti porn is, deep down, being anti sex. And it isn't, it really isn't. I see nothing wrong with realising that most teenagers will want to have sex - and that the aim of sex education should be to enable them to have sex safely, enjoyably, in a mutually respectful situation when they have the emotional maturity to do so, and to help them develop a sense of their own boundaries, help them to avoid people who are coercive/abusive, and educate them in how not to be coercive/abusive (even by accident).

You can believe this and still want to say to them "think about the circumstances of the production of most porn - do you really want to be jerking off to something that might in fact be filmed evidence of a real rape taking place?" Just as you want to say to them "you know that novel where the 'hero' rapes the woman but she comes to enjoy it - that's made up - do not emulate it in your real life." (And you may, at this point, say "but that's conflating real life and fantasy/novels" - but the figures on date rape and coercive sex suggest that there must be a fair few men out there not managing to make that distinction).

You seem to think that because sex is, absent all complicating factors, a jolly good thing that we must never pass moral judgement on any expression of sexuality. I think this is wrong - all sex takes place, has to take place, in a moral context. Even if that moral context is, say, in a one night stand being respectful to your partner, checking out that they're okay with things all the way through, using a condom, being respectful to them afterwards - in short treating them like a human being rather than an inflatable doll. It is not wrong to set moral limits on one's sexual activity, nor is it wrong to seek a partner who shares a moral world view with you (which might include saying "if you feel you cannot live without porn, then you are not the sort of person I wish to be in a relationship with" - and expecting them to be honest with you, even if that means the end of the relationship, not lie about their porn usage).