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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Math Magazine and 'good' porn.

582 replies

MrsToddsShortcut · 20/08/2016 10:28

While I can see what she is trying to do, is the concept of 'nice'/'good' porn still not skirting around the same ballpark as all the hideous, damaging degrading stuff? It's still effectively saying porn is okay. Or would you say this is closer to erotic writing, I.e no real people involved? Is it just the wide end of a very nasty wedge? Genuinely not sure how I feel about this.

Huff post article about Math magazine

OP posts:
VestalVirgin · 01/09/2016 12:13

Italian; when we say "religious", we apparently mean different things. Christians who really believe in all this loving your neighbour stuff seem to be rather rare these days, the more vocal groups are all about controlling women.

As I mentioned earlier, I think the ones who are all about controlling women would probably pay some lip service to the notion of banning porn, in theory, but not really support any efficient steps to actually do it, because porn is a part of patriarchy and helps in controlling women.

Christians who truly and honestly care about all people, I would group under "feminists", to prevent misunderstandings. (Though increasingly, there's actual feminists, and there are those who claim to be feminists but don't work towards the liberation of women, so, same problem as with Christians, I suppose. Though it is easier to define who is not a real feminist, while religion is more open to interpretation.)

Lastly, Mostly, you say you are not a good writer and you seem to not like erotic fiction, why do you write it?

I, too, write fanfic, and am probably a lousy writer. Reasons why I do it?

1.) The world needs more erotic fanfic that is less male gazey (I'm not perfect, but I try.) More art from a woman's point of view, in general.

2.) I am lousy at writing, but I am worse at everything else, and positive comments are still good for my self esteem, even though I would probably be ripped apart by serious literature critics if they ever saw my work

FreshwaterSelkie · 01/09/2016 12:52

I like this: I think if we ever reached the position where banning porn was something that might happen, patriarchy would be in its death throes, and if patriarchy was in its death throes, we'd probably not need to ban porn because the idea of wanking to the ritual abuse and humiliation of women would be regarded as a relic of an inconceivably dark and oppressive time

I like to imagine that time. Death throes of the patriarchy. I'd definitely bring popcorn. I think one day in the future we might look back on hardcore porn the way we look back on people going to Bedlam to laugh at the inmates, or going to hangings. Products of their time, but something that we've thankfully moved beyond.

mostly, some interesting points in there, particularly about the difficutly of shedding the male gaze.

Italiangreyhound · 01/09/2016 14:03

Freshwater I so hope you are right we will look back on porn like we look back on public hangings.

vestal I won't derail the thread 're religious people. I do know many who are lovely love your neighbour types. Smile

I wonder if my feminist credentials would stand up. I'd love to do more to end porn and all oppression, of women and others.

Was going to ask about practical steps to fight for women more/against porn.

I've no idea what erotica is like, I'm guessing it would bore the pants on me! But then my writing is children's fiction and many adults would find that dull! And I'be yet to get published! So kudos to you if you cash get published and not trash women.
Grin

Bumbledumb · 01/09/2016 14:06

That's an interesting statement. You equate porn with sexuality? Why?

I come from Ireland where pornography was banned for many years. In my experience, when a state decides to try to legislate sexual morality, the cost falls mostly on women. There are plenty of countries where pornography is illegal. It is illegal across much of North Africa and the Middle East. They are not countries where women are free of oppression.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 01/09/2016 14:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bumbledumb · 01/09/2016 14:29

If anyone is curious, this paper is an interesting read on Irish history.

Bumbledumb · 01/09/2016 14:40

Why do you think porn is like sexual freedom?

because people who legislate against porn, also legislate against sexual education, and access to information on abortion and contraception; people who think that if they teach children nothing about sex, then they won't have sex.

VestalVirgin · 01/09/2016 15:17

I come from Ireland where pornography was banned for many years.

Was banned? So it is not banned anymore, but abortion still is? And how did they prevent men from accessing online porn, anyway?

because people who legislate against porn, also legislate against sexual education

Um, no? They don't? Sure, there is some overlap between ineffectual laws against porn and very efficient laws against women, but France has recently taken steps to abolish prostitution, and they still have sex ed and access to abortion and contraception. And I am rather sure that Sweden, where prostitution is also being abolished, has neither banned sex ed nor contraception.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 01/09/2016 15:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sillage · 01/09/2016 15:38

Yeah, Iceland is a real dystopian nightmare of a nation for women. No, wait, it's one of the most feminist nations the Earth has yet progressed to.

It is women who have a genuine interest in banning the mass distribution of filmed rapes, Bumbledumb. If you were reading the past five pages with open sincerity instead of defensiveness you would understand the boatload of non-religious, non-conservative reasons why.

"Iceland wants to ban internet porn"
www.worldbulletin.net/world/139477/iceland-wants-to-ban-internet-porn

Iceland also banned all strip clubs in 2010.

Italiangreyhound · 01/09/2016 15:49

Hooray for Iceland, I hope they succeed. UK next?

MostlyHet · 01/09/2016 15:51

Italian, I think you may have misunderstood several points in my post (possibly because it was so epically long - perhaps I need a good editor!)

I agree that the written word is different from film, for the reasons you say.

Also, when I said there were two theories, the "repressed desire" theory, and the Stockholm syndrome theory, I thought it was pretty clear that I favoured the latter as an explanation. NB, as a caveat, I'd say that I don't know where you're from. If you're based in Europe or the UK, your experience of evangelical Christianity may be very different from that of someone in the US. I had naively thought "surely no-one is that repressed" before I had long series of online discussions with American writers who felt they really had had their sexuality damaged by repressive religious attitudes - there was a very good blog post on this on the "No longer quivering" blogsite - which admittedly is about people escaping extreme religion, but I've also talked to women whose upbringing was much more liberal but still feel they were left screwed up about sex. America is a complex and varied country, and obviously attitudes in, say, San Francisco are going to be different from those in Little Bend, Michigan - but there are still pockets which are deeply socially conservative. I still think that the Stockholm syndrome explanation is more plausible, but in the light of conversations I've had with numerous people, I wouldn't completely write off the repression theory.

As for "no harm, except possibly the writer" - you're forgetting that this stuff is widely read too, often by teenagers (despite putting age ratings on it). In this respect it's shaping peoples' attitudes, though no more so, I would say, than back in my teens (a long time ago) when we thumbed through our mum's copies of Jilly Cooper and didn't realise at the time that the "coercive sex" was actually rape.

I should point out that I like a lot of fanfic, for the reasons Vestal alludes to - that typically one is already invested in the characters. "Non-con" is a small, but non-negligible proportion of erotic fanfic, which in turn is actually a minority part of fanfic as a whole (there's romantic but not sexual fanfic, and non-romantic fanfic out there too). I like "vanilla" erotica, and general fanfic - I just find the rape fantasies disturbing (I don't read them, but I am interested, as an intellectual, and feminist question, as to why women write it: why would women be complicit in and celebrate their own oppression?)

As to why I bother to write it when I'm not particularly good - why does anyone have a hobby that they're not up to professional standard at? People get pleasure from playing music without being good enough to make it as professional musicians, people get pleasure from going to art classes without thinking they'll win next year's Turner prize, people get pleasure from playing Sunday league football even though they're never going to be signed for a Premiership team - why should writing be any different?

MostlyHet · 01/09/2016 16:01

Actually, I'd like to pick up another thing - complimentary to the issue of the ubiquity of the male gaze which Vestal and Buffy said rang bells with them, and that is the issue of the eroticisation of submission - not in the sense of anything non-consensual going on, but the "she swooned into his manly arms" type of submission. I try to write stuff that depicts relationships of equals having mutual fun - but it fascinates me to find out how it comes across to readers (one thing that's fascinating about fanfiction is the review system, which means you get feedback from and interact with readers in a very immediate way - and from my passing knowledge of postmodern literary theory is fascinating - the number of interpretations you can get on a text is endless!) I wrote one sex scene which I simply thought of as enjoyable sex within a long-term relationship, instigated by the woman, the woman happened to be on top, the woman talked during sex about what she enjoyed. That was it (I really am more vanilla than an entire tub of vanilla ice-cream: there was no BDSM subtext at all). One reviewer posted something saying "great to see a woman being dominant in bed..." - in other words, a sexual act which didn't conform to the normal trope of "she swooned in his arms" was being read as "woman dominant" because the reader seemed to have no head space for "relationship of equals."

VestalVirgin · 01/09/2016 16:14

I like "vanilla" erotica, and general fanfic - I just find the rape fantasies disturbing (I don't read them, but I am interested, as an intellectual, and feminist question, as to why women write it: why would women be complicit in and celebrate their own oppression?)

That's a really interesting question, and I hope not too off topic.

I have recently noticed a phenomenon wherein the plot is such rape takes place, but there is no clear culprit. Like, the villain is holding a gun to the heroine's head and says he will kill her if the hero doesn't rape her. Or someone is poisoned by "sex pollen", which turn people into sex-crazed nymphomaniacs and penetration by a penis is the only way to get them back to normal, or even necessary for their survival.

I am not sure whether this is a way of dealing with the experience of coercive sex, where they don't want to blame the perpetrator, by inventing stories wherein there is a legitimate reason why the rapist cannot be blamed.
Or a way of dealing with the "a good girl is not supposed to want sex" problem, while at the same time realizing that committing rape would make the male characters rapists, so inventing a legitimate reason why they are forced to do this, even though they are good people who don't want to do it.

If the latter, then perhaps this is progress? At least they notice that men who like to rape are bad news?

But it probably is both, with some other elements added in.

Anita Sarkeesian has this video series on misogynist tropes in video games, and there is one about the video games where violence against women is justified because the woman is a monster, turns into a monster and must be killed to be released, or some other reason.

The "woman needs to be raped because reasons" plot seems creepily similar to that.

VestalVirgin · 01/09/2016 16:19

One reviewer posted something saying "great to see a woman being dominant in bed..." - in other words, a sexual act which didn't conform to the normal trope of "she swooned in his arms" was being read as "woman dominant" because the reader seemed to have no head space for "relationship of equals."

I remember reading a fic that was tagged as " mild female dominant" and wondering where the BDSM element was, because it was just what you described, sex between equal partners, with the woman perhaps suggesting some thing she'd enjoy, but no dominance at all. I happen to like vanilla and just read femdom as a way to get away from the ubiquitous male dominance that many people don't tag, so I wasn't disappointed, but it definitely confirms your observations.

Italiangreyhound · 01/09/2016 16:41

mostly I am mainstream evangelical in UK. Quite different to USA. I've read of the quiverful and it is all pretty scary and 'women know your place'! I am not like that. Nor am I anti same sex marriage. There really is quite a variety within evangelicalism. Plus I did give the caveat that people born into very strict, religious or otherwise, homes things may be different/e.g.stifling.

Sorry I thought you were a professional writer. Which was why I was confused by you saying you were not very good.

I was not arguing with you about the repressed desire, I was saying I didn't't buy it. But it sounds like you don't either. So we appear to agree. Not sure where else I disagreed with you?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/09/2016 17:53

Why do you think porn is like sexual freedom? There are two things here: porn, and people being free to express sexuality. Your argument seems to rest on those two things being pretty much the same. I'm not sure they are. In fact I'd think that porn - in our unequal society - is more of a detriment to what sexuality could be

I agree. Porn needs sex to be dirty and shameful.

Re religion, I'm a zealous atheist.

Bumbledumb · 01/09/2016 18:39

Was banned? So it is not banned anymore, but abortion still is? And how did they prevent men from accessing online porn, anyway?

In 1923, there was no such thing as online porn.

MostlyHet · 01/09/2016 18:44

Like I said, sounds like my writing could just do with a good editor, Italian Grin

Bitofacow · 01/09/2016 19:03

So real feminists (not you bitofacow you are the wrong kind of feminist) are going to join with right wing religious zealots to ban porn. We don't need to listen to people whining about civil liberties. Freedom of Speech is a nonsense we can ignore. We will all live together in harmony whether we like it or not.

If anyone wants to express their sexuality using film they are self deluded and they don't like it for the reasons they think they like it. They like it for the reasons we are telling them they like it whether they like it or not. All porn is what we think it is even if it isn't. It is cos we say so.

Banning things works so well and never has the reverse effect like prohibition in the US. Nope banning things is the way forward.

Sounds like a planHmm

Mr Orwell, paging Mr Orwell.....

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 01/09/2016 19:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 01/09/2016 19:14

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Bitofacow · 01/09/2016 19:20

Thedancingbear "few people bleating about civil liberties"

Banning anything makes my blood run cold. Enforcing 'opinion' using law is the first step of most totalitarian regimes. I assume you do not want to replace one form of oppression with another.

If you find youself saying "but it's OK for me to ban what I don't like because I am RIGHT" take a deep breath and a then a long hard look at yourself.

Bitofacow · 01/09/2016 19:22

Bloody hell Buffy I was going to watch the telly and now I have to go and look that up. Will you stop being so bloody reasonable!

TeiTetua · 01/09/2016 19:25

Did someone read Ireland and see Iceland?

Back in the day when film and books were the way information travelled, Ireland had a list of forbidden items, heavily influenced by what the Catholic clergy disapproved of. Since the government was also trying to promote use of the Irish language, there was a joke that they should print all the forbidden items in Gaelic, and accomplish both goals simultaneously.

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