What Makes A Woman?

[MxJackMonroe]

Hi MNers,

A couple of days ago I did an informal webchat ...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2693127-Im-Jack-Monroe-Ask-me-anything

...and it seemed to go quite well. One of the questions that came up was 'What Is A Woman'?

I'm throwing this one open to the floor - as I am interested to hear your opinions on it.

Please try to not railroad the thread with trans-bashing; it is a wider question than that, so keep responses respectful please.

Jx

Medically speaking, there are two ways of defining sex: genotype and phenotype.

Phenotypically, male gonads (i.e. testicles) determine male sex and female gonads (ovaries) determine female sex. Intersex babies are tested genetically to determine sex when not apparent visually or on ultrasound.

Genotypically, regardless of the number of X chromosomes, anyone without a Y is female, with a Y is male. Klinefelter males are therefore male and Turner's syndrome females are female.

I really don't understand how there can be any ambiguity around this.
I'm happy for people to dress and behave however they like, but sex is determined prior to birth and gender is a societal/cultural concept.
I think the two have become confused and distorted in recent years, but there really is a scientific definition of what constitutes a woman.

As for gender, people have said almost exactly what I think with regards to putting women in boxes. I have more to add, but will write a separate post...

^ that.

I think a lot of it is down to squeamish people changing the 'sex' box ("yes please, lol") to 'gender'.

Erm, no. I thought this was the right area to post it to explore the question. 'Most of my beef' is with war, poverty, benefit sanctions, child abuse, rape, FGM, etc. I'm not here to troll, and am saddened that anyone would think that.

Ah, I didn't mean to imply you were trolling but it did sound from your original post that you felt attacked by posters on MN and that as it was mostly gender critical posters that your problems were mostly with the FWR section.

I was never a tomboy as a child, but I had pretty free-range parents who never imposed any particuler gender role on me. My mum is pretty masculine and did all the DIY, decorating etc, while my Dad did most of the housework, shopping, cooking etc. I guess as a result of that I've never felt obliged to fulfil a particular role. I'm just me and I do what I like.

I have a daughter with ASD, who considers herself gender-fluid and I've discussed it openly with her. I'm married to a man, but would probably be described as pansexual, if I had to give myself a label, and I've told my daughter she can be whoever she wants whilst still being herself. She hates her female body, but doesn't particularly want to be male either - she just finds it difficult coping with periods, teasing from boys about her bust size etc. I understand that, but I'm not sure transitioning is the solution, although I'll support her if that's what she decides.

Personally, I find the opposite is true for me. Whilst I love DIY, gardening etc and have a traditionally male job, I also love fashion, make-up and beauty. I also loved being pregnant and breastfeeding.

I find myself avoiding wearing too many dresses or too much make-up, though, because the current trends in fashion seem to be moving towards an over-exaggerated, over-sexualised femininity. To be fashionable as a woman these days seems to involve looking like a porn star

It certainly explains why younger women who don't identify with this over-sexualised female image are now questioning their gender identity. I'd choose to be male too, if I felt that was the only alternative.

We need feminism more than ever now, but yet society seems to continue to polarise and move towards the extremes in every respect.
It really does make me sad for my daughters and their entire generation.

some women have short hair, like to sleep with other women rather than men, don't really go for 'feminine' names or nicknames, have tattoos, but guess what - also, they might have children, be really good at cooking.... or literally any combination of all the ways one can dress, people one can fancy or fall in love with, hairstyles one can have, bits of the body one can be proud of or dislike..... and that doesn't mean they're not a woman, or are 'genderqueer' or exceptionally non-binary - just that that's what they're like?

Yes, saying "woman = person with a vagina" to me isn't reducing us down to our genitals. .. it's sort of the exact opposite. It's all we have in common, that and the way we are treated because of them. It means we could be anything and everything and feel a million different ways. We need to understand what we in common because we are still oppressed..

Defining 'man' to me is far less problematic as men aren't held back because of their dicks. It's probably why lefty men think it's so easy to side with the transactivisits. Women can call themselves transmen but it's never going to actually harm men.

Women = adult human female = vagina/uterus/ovaries/eggs/XX (even if any of those do not work or appear as usually expected)

THIS.

In an ideal world, a woman can behave however she chooses, whilst remaining "herself" as a woman. Men too. Both men and women should have the whole spectrum of experiences and behaviours available to them, and not be limited by stereotypical and limiting gender constructs.

I agree, the problem is with the stereotype not with their sex. If we could isolate and remove the cultural and societal expectations, I do wonder if the prevalence/ impact of body dysmorphia would be as high.

I agree about young women moving towards "non binary" to avoid the over sexualisation totally. I also think if I were 15 today I'd identify as 'non binary' but as I'm not and I've had children and realised that most of my lot in life has been decided on the basis of my breasts and vagina it would be a bit self defeating because I can't change what people think of me, I can't opt out. So I need to make everyone stop thinking of women as people with lady brains and to think of women as people with a million different wants and needs but who also happen to have breasts and vaginas and who occasionally get pregnant and feed their kids.

Swiss this is a very dangerous situation for feminism, because if all the young girls who don't identify with the oversexualised vision of what makes a women and decide to transition, the porn star version is all that will remain of the female gender

If I were 15 today I'd also identify as non-binary at the least, if not being convinced I am transgender. There are a lot of autistic mners (not miners, Ffs autocorrect!!) who say the same. There have been entire threads about it.

If I were to start a thread asking what Klinefelter syndrome was, it would be resolved within a few posts by people explaining that it was a person with XXY chromosomes and that various physical features were associated with it - small testes for example. People might also address some of the damaging baseless stereotypes that have been needlessly associated with people who have Klinefelter syndrome, such as they are less intelligent. They might also discuss the cultural history of discrimination of this group - their poor medical treatment.

What people would not say is, a person with Klinefelter syndrome is anyone who identifies as having Klinefelter syndrome, or get into some kind of philosophical abstraction about language.

We all know what female is -bitch, ewe, cow, vixen, sow. They're the ones with the eggs. A woman is the adult human kind.

Anyone who can easily understand what Klinefelter syndrome is can easily understand what a woman is. For a start, all of us started out by spending nine months inside a woman.

Brilliant almond, perfectly put.

freypie I would hope no one from FWR would flame you while you're trying to make sense of your feelings.

Take care.

Yes, saying "woman = person with a vagina" to me isn't reducing us down to our genitals.

There was a great post on tumblr exactly about this which has sadly been removed. The main point was no-one is stupid enough to think a descriptor entirely encompasses anything, except in the case of the polarised trans debate. Describing a lion as having a mane is not reducing the lion to a mane. A giraffe is more than a long neck. Etc etc.

If I were 15 today I'd also identify as non-binary at the least, if not being convinced I am transgender. There are a lot of autistic mners (not miners, Ffs autocorrect!!) who say the same. There have been entire threads about it.

I have aspeger's and although I'd fit the bill for calling myself non-binary, I just can't imagine myself ever believing in gender. I suppose it's a different world now to when I was at school but I'm only 28 ffs! If I had been born ten years later would I believe in an internal feminine essence? I bloody hope not!

Well yes, there is that! I guess I'm imagining that everyone around me would be believing in it (as opposed to not, as now), but I'd be sat here like

I too think, if I was 5yo now, and screaming at my mum I wanted to be a boy. I'd be taken to the doctors.and confirmed I was a boy stuck in a girls body. Scary really.

Although if my parents were the same as they were, I'd hope they'd do the same as they did, and take me to the hair dresses, and cut my hair off and buy and allow me to dress and do as I wanted 're toys and interests.and telling me I can do and be anything I want to be.

But come my teens when peer pressure kicks in to conform, and well meaning groups set up to help gender non conforming people, who knows where I'd be

I don't think I know a single woman who is happy and comfortable in her skin.

Doesn't make them not women.

Perhaps we should ask Daesh, the Catholic Church, rapists, DV abusers etc what a woman is. They don't seem to have any problems identifying and abusing us.

FFS, this idea that we're all blundering about utterly confused about each other's sex is demonstrable nonsense.

So, Jack, you have 8 pages of BRILLIANT women here, in response to your question and you are clearly not daft; surely you see that being a women is biological? And that 'gender identity' is just another messy optional facet of personality?

Your personality doesn't alter biological reality

It seems to me that you know this actually, but you are scared to accept it?

Women don't have to be feminine. And you can't identify out of rape and sexual assault

I don't think I know a single woman who is happy and comfortable in her skin

me neither Hermione

XX chromosomes and the ability to produce eggs in early life
Vagina, wider pelvis and breast tissue with potential to produce milk to feed young
Has the definition changed recently?!

Looking forward to your answer Jack

mjingaxx. It's appalling isn't it?

No, it hasn't kennington. There is no need for confusion.

When people disagree with a definition, there is usually a basis for disagreement and the onus is on that body of people to offer an alternative.

It is highly illogical to discredit the established definition, without offering a credible alternative

Yes Hermione, it is

But i do wonder how Jack and others are not aware of this phenomenon amongst women

I am hoping Jack is drinking some gin sitting somewhere and thinking about how she has suddenly come to see that she agrees a bit with those TERFS and how maybe they really aren't all that unreasonable just a bit pissed off that everything is so shit.

Also by the by, this is a really good article on what "terf" really means. I'd love it if all of you could have a look.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/02/are-you-now-or-have-you-ever-been-terf