What Makes A Woman?

[MxJackMonroe]

Hi MNers,

A couple of days ago I did an informal webchat ...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2693127-Im-Jack-Monroe-Ask-me-anything

...and it seemed to go quite well. One of the questions that came up was 'What Is A Woman'?

I'm throwing this one open to the floor - as I am interested to hear your opinions on it.

Please try to not railroad the thread with trans-bashing; it is a wider question than that, so keep responses respectful please.

Jx

Jack, I just had a thought. Did you think that by posting this in FWR rather than say AIBU, you will only get a particular section of responses?

A few people yesterday said on the AMA thread that they felt it should have been in Feminism, so I took heed and put this one here. I didn't think much harder than that about it - I'm fairly simple!

It's the sort of question I'd expect someone to consider at a much earlier stage of their journey than this, to be honest.

I have a problem with the sexualised pornified, submissive, need-a-man-and-a-white-wedding, baby machine, frilly pink crap that is expected of women. I still am a woman though. Pretending I'm not won't fix society.

jack - this may be a separate thread (so apologies), but I am interested in what you say about discontent with womanhood. I'd be interested to hear about that, if you feel able.

I have a really good friend who identifies as genderqueer, and we often talk about this, and have been struck by how we present very differently in the public eye, but actually have quite similar feelings about our bodies.

It may be that's nothing to do with your experience, but your post made me interested.

Have you considered, Jack, that your unease is not actually with your womanhood itself, but with the expectations society inflicts on you because of it? That the problem is not anything to do with you, but with gender stereotypes and sexism. Any women in her right mind who fully knows and understands how shit the world is for women feels unease with what it means to be a woman in our society! Why would any of us be comfortable with how we are treated simply for the 'crime' of being born a biological woman?

Jack, do you agree/have any thoughts on the comments here about patriarchy restricting everything to a binary, even with trans/agender/intersex? And that binary being "man" and "not man"?

I like sera's post :)

(Sorry if that was patronising and I'm stating the obvious to you.)

(It doesn't look patronising to me :) )

So Jack, you were asked this and now you've asked us (having set out your rules for the thread which frankly I suspect would put most MNers' backs up on any normal thread, unless they were issued by MNHQ - but hey, we'll let that go):but are you any closer to knowing what you think yet?

Sorry if that got anyones backs up. I chair a lot of debates in the real world and I didn't even think about it coming across as ... however it does. I'm not an arse. I'm generally reasonable and polite. I just didn't want it descending into pandemonium and being deleted, as there could be (and certainly is) an interesting discussion to be had. I apologise if I came across as too big for my boots in the original post. I'd just read on the other thread someone armchair-diagnosing me as Emotionally Unstable Borderline Personality Disorder (I'm not, I have 99 mental health problems but BPD ain't one...) so was possibly a bit touchy when I started this thread. Grovel grovel grovel, etc.

jack - this may be a separate thread (so apologies), but I am interested in what you say about discontent with womanhood. I'd be interested to hear about that, if you feel able. I have a really good friend who identifies as genderqueer, and we often talk about this, and have been struck by how we present very differently in the public eye, but actually have quite similar feelings about our bodies. It may be that's nothing to do with your experience, but your post made me interested.

It sounds familiar. I have always been discontent with my body, from its femaleness to its abuse to its now-overweight-and-shapelessness. Partly gender related, partly shame, but it started very early on. I think it's a new thread, later on, but it strikes a hundred chords.

Slight tangent, but I started this and wonder if it's of interest: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_theory/2694770-Your-experiences-of-discomfort-with-the-idea-of-growing-up-to-be-a-woman?

vashta I agree about language evolving and I have no problem at all with calling trans people by their preferred pronouns.
My problem comes with trying to write new definitions into law. If an organisation starts from a position that a trans woman is a woman, then tries to retrofit legislation to fit that definition, we end up with a fudge that probably disadvantages non-trans women, as the segregation was there for a reason in the first place.
This is exactly the issue the Olympic committee is facing with their hormone level criteria.

Cross posted!

Well, I started a new thread, though it may not be the new thread you were thinking of.

I do find this interesting, thank you.

I have always been discontent with my body, from its femaleness to its abuse to its now-overweight-and-shapelessness. Partly gender related, partly shame, but it started very early on. I wish I could give you a big hug.
Your body is amazing, it serves you well every day, it's birthed a son, you have nothing to be ashamed about.

It's the sort of question I'd expect someone to consider at a much earlier stage of their journey than this, to be honest.

I've been considering it for years. Since questioning why I had to go to the Girls school aged 11 when I wasn't convinced I was a girl. I'm just interested in other peoples views and I am finding this thread extremely interesting.

SwissWank: Jack do you see why I find it offensive when transwomen say they knew they were female from the start because they like dresses and dolls playing with the girls?

I find the stereotypical gendering of behaviour in the transgender diagnosis quite astonishing, as someone who has been through that consultation, but I reconciled it with myself (mostly) as children acting out behaviours typically associated with the opposite gender out of some kind of expectation? I'm not sure I explain that very well.

What I constantly find amazing is that gender stereotypes are so ingrained and accepted as truth in our society that when looking for a solution to a person who absolutely rejects the stereotypes associated with their sex, we apparently prefer to perform the mental and logical gymnastics required to say that the person must not really be the sex they actually are rather than call bullshit on said gender stereotypes.

Jack, back when you were 11, was your dissociation with being a girl directed at your physical reality, ie, having a vagina, or at everything you were being told about what was expected of you in terms of clothing/behaviour/'suitable hobbies'/future jobs/getting married and having babies?

Jack

Feel TOTALLY FREE to ignore me if I'm being too personal. I am just curious how you felt during your pregnancy, given you've obviously had feelings since childhood.

I had a very.. Well I have never spoken about it ever, but my pregnancy of my DTs was very hard. Do you mind sharing? I sorta feel like I might not be alone but I know I'm prying and rambling...

You'll find a lot of common ground here with women kicking against womanhood (or maybe femininity rather?) and everything that it entails, Jack. Being a woman in the patriarchy can be a poison chalice full of bullshit. Who wouldn't want to reject that?

The biology is unavoidable, but the rest of it - the sex roles, the sexism - we can work to change. You don't have to refugee out of being a woman to reject the tyranny of gendered expectations. I prescribe some feminism

Suggesting that a genetic mutation that only happens in male humans can help to define what female humans are is simplistic and distasteful.

I didn't do this. Or at least I didn't mean to. Bringing up Klinefelter was a response to a poster who said XX chromosomes made one female. I gave an example where that didn't work as an absolute definition. It's a difficult subject but I was kind of hoping that having spent 2 days on the other thread answering questions thoughtfully and respectfully, people would get that I wasn't a massive dick. Meh.

The biology is unavoidable, but the rest of it - the sex roles, the sexism - we can work to change. You don't have to refugee out of being a woman to reject the tyranny of gendered expectations. I prescribe some feminism

I am a feminist. Loud, proud, feminist. But go on, give me some reading recommendations. I'm always happy to get stuck in and learn.

To be fair, lots of people won't have seen the other thread, right?

I don't think it would make anyone an 'massive dick' to discuss this stuff, anyway.

Feel TOTALLY FREE to ignore me if I'm being too personal. I am just curious how you felt during your pregnancy, given you've obviously had feelings since childhood.

I really struggled with it. But I carried a healthy child and ate well and looked after myself. But the changes to my body were very distressing. I've buried it somewhere deep over the last 6 or 7 years. I can't really wrench it up now, I have a wonderful son who I love dearly.

I've recommended on here before, but I love Feminist Current .

I didn't see another thread by the way, so I don't know what was and wasn't discussed on there.