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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

This is getting out of control - Ladyfest

238 replies

Chickpeasandpakchoi · 03/06/2016 19:52

Has banned the use of the word 'clitoris' at its feminist festival as it it trans exclusionary.
www.feministcurrent.com/2016/06/03/german-ladyfest-clitoris-exclusionary/
I hope it is boycotted by women. How DARE they tell us we cannot celebrate and talk about our female anatomy?

OP posts:
Petal40 · 03/06/2016 22:42

I'm so confused.. Anyone else?

HeartsTrumpDiamonds · 03/06/2016 22:43

Just place marking to read the links later.

This is outrageous.

Petal40 · 03/06/2016 22:44

Chickpeas,,,if we accept their label yes.....I refuse it..

VestalVirgin · 03/06/2016 22:44

virgin...why? Why would it make people angry

Because they, after thinking about it at length, decided to outlaw the term "clitoris".

I don't think that the female libfems who are most likely responsible for this decision would physically attack me (though they would sure do so verbally) but there are males there, too.

buckingfrolicks · 03/06/2016 22:44

That link in the OP ... Suddenly I'm crying. Tears just pinged out reading it. It feels like an attack on women. FUCK this is absolutely terrible.

NeedACleverNN · 03/06/2016 22:46

Also rape threats seem to be the go to threat for some men...

Woman out of place? Better rape her so knows where she ought to be.

Petal40 · 03/06/2016 22:50

To sum up,before I go to bed...a spade is a spade.a clit is a clit...an owner of a penis is male.a man.not a woman.not ever,not while it dangles....therefore no place at a woman's festival....idiots running the festival for allowing men in....needs boycotting to prove a point...my sympathies 100% for anyone going through a sex change,genuinely feeling they are in the wrong body....any one male who wants to wear a dress, 100 % fine with that too...but don't call yrself a woman or go in women's loos to invade our space,because you are a man X

VestalVirgin · 03/06/2016 22:54

Anita Sarkeesian got rape threats for ... pointing out that some videogames glorify rape (among other things.) The irony of this was apparently lost on the gamers who were so insulted by the accusation of misogyny that they ... reacted by proving that they are, indeed, very misogynist.

Therefore, it would not surprise me at all if MtT were so insulted by talk about female anatomy that they'd threated to rape someone with their penis. Or actually do so.

NeedACleverNN · 03/06/2016 22:54

Pretty much spot on there petal Grin

DioneTheDiabolist · 03/06/2016 22:56

If you Google "gender queer" and "queer feminism" you'll find better definitions than I could give you. Gender Queer has been a thing for some time now. I think queer feminism is more recent.

AuntDotsie · 03/06/2016 23:00

Sorry, Dione, I didn't realise it was actually A Thing!

By Queer Feminism, we mean a feminism that is different–a feminism that directly challenges the issues above and does not rest on its laurels. We believe that the definition of feminism that focuses on equality between men and women both excludes non-binary genders and ignores the serious problems created by patriarchy that harm people of any gender and can be exacerbated by people of any gender.

I don't even know where to start with that.

NeedACleverNN · 03/06/2016 23:01

Isn't gender queer just another way of saying non-binary or is that something else entirely?

Petal40 · 03/06/2016 23:02

Don't want to google gender queer...or queer feminism..I reject all stupid names and terminologys....I'm not pandering to this crap...if a person has a penis he is male...I refuse to give any of my time to these attention seeking wannabe females....a male in a dress,doesn't need a name.it is what it is.a male in a dress.same person,weather in a dress or jeans,no stupid name needed.rediculous.all gone to far

Didactylos · 03/06/2016 23:27

I really have a problem with this

I have female anatomy. I have a vagina, vulva, clitoris, labia majora and minora, cervix, cervical os and fornices, uterus, fallopian tubes and ovaries. Its not a front hole or any euphemism for a neovagina, its a functional organ with its own autoregulation, cyclical hormonal influences, blood supply, microbiological flora, cervical and bartholins glands, rugae and musculature. Its a part of my anatomy and reality just as my heart, lungs and spleen are.

I am pretty lucky in some ways compared to other women in the world who are denied this knowledge, this ability to speak of their sexual organs, understand how they work and have control over when and how I use them. I am incredibly lucky to have never been subjected to infibulation or surgical changes, or any of the myriad vile acts that can beand are carried out on women and girls because of their anatomy (not their internal indentity, sense of gender, but their anatomy.)

I have an education denied to many women because they were born with these organs, I can speak of them calmly, with no sense of disgust or shame, like one would use the terms penis, testes or scrotum. 100 years ago textbooks were censored, even the first female medical students had to fight for the right to learn and dissect both male and female anatomy: knowledge is dangerous! Generations of women lived, had sex, gave birth and died without being able to discuss or define or understand aspects of their anatomy, and shame and embarrassment meant that they did not seek assistance for medical problems. Its one of the things that has led me into the field I work in and in charity work involving education, health and obstetric care in developing nations.

These things matter - we are supposed to avoid discussion of our genitalia with a huge subtext of 'nasty smelly things anyway' heaped in so we do not trigger dysphoric feelings in those unhappy at not being born with our anatomy? We are supposed to use euphymisms to pretend that the phenotypes we are born with in all their complexity are somehow identically equivalent to a surgically created neovagina that requires mechanical dilation and fulfils only one function of the vagina eg allows penetration.

I have always been sympathetic to those who feel trapped by gendered norms in our society, wish they could be different, be socially accepted in not conforming to dress and behavioural expectations, love who they want and live how they want as long as its legal, consensual and non exploitative. I cant however get behind any movement that in the interests of some sense of equality creates an Orwellian double speak where we have to obfuscate and deny any difference: it prevents real issues and problems being described and oddly enough, plu ca change, its women who are being denied the ability to speak of and define their reality.

Didactylos · 03/06/2016 23:28

I also apparently need a spellchecker

DioneTheDiabolist · 03/06/2016 23:51

All of the articles I have read about the feminisation of periods and sanpro or periods being triggering for trans people have been from a born female now non binary or trans man perspective. Even the thread in AIBU last week regarding periods being a woman's issue, the link was an article that was predominantly born women who no longer identify as women commenting.

Didactylos · 04/06/2016 00:28

Again - a trans man requesting sanpro etc discussions to be changed to accommodate them means we still prioritize the feelings of gender identity and self definition above accuracy and biology and thus privilege the self definition of a few above the reality of the many. I would love to know if the same trans men are complaining about men using language that excludes them and references male biology - perhaps we should no longer testify in court or be able to use words like Bollocks as these are triggering. We might get rid of some long held phalluses that way (Bad joke, I know!)

How a trans man deals with their body and periods etc must be a difficult choice and its pretty understandable that female body changes can be associated with dysphoria; but should acceptance and sympathy for this it be used to change the language for every other woman so we can centre those who identify as male?

Its also interesting that some trans men choose while their identity is male to carry children and breastfeed e.g. use their female anatomy in a way only females can: but apparently their dysphoric feelings are more triggered when people use language to describe this? eg calling them a pregnant woman, discussing breastfeeding. I would love to understand but I cant work out how to square that circle!

singingsixpence82 · 04/06/2016 01:23

I think how it works is that most trans people who do not undergo reassignment surgery are now so used to hearing "men can have vaginas" that they no longer consider their actual anatomy to be male. But they don't believe a man can be a woman (as they define both terms) so hearing terms like "woman" are triggering. I don't get the breast feeding thing though because surely if you're male and you have breasts they are just male breasts? Like your male vagina? It's maybe very individual to each person?

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/06/2016 01:34

From what I can gather, many/most/all(?) trans and non binary people would prefer sanpro to be marketed as: "Have periods? Here's our sanpro product." No gender identity, just biology.

singingsixpence82 · 04/06/2016 02:07

Hmm, what new euphamism will be chosen for the "feminine hygiene" aisle?

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/06/2016 02:16

The Period/Sanpro aisle?

None of the supermarkets here have a whole aisle though. Sanpro is found with the nappies and babyfood.

Petal40 · 04/06/2016 08:13

How do some of you know so much....but also,in my very sheltered (boring?) life,I've never come across any of this,but then I'm not on face book.but I do read the daily mail...are there really that many men wanting to become female???are they all really unhappy being male??? OR....is this a way of getting power over women,a way of making us feel bad ,and taking away our sense of woman ness....sorry if that sounds stupid...this thread is my first ..err like time I'm thinking about this.

dementedma · 04/06/2016 08:23

petal I generally avoid any threads on these topics as I am totally bewildered by the terminology and then I get really pissed off with some of the comments. Have loved your comments on this one, you could be me, and I think you sum it all up neatly in your penultimate post.

ladyballs · 04/06/2016 08:26

Petal I don't think you're stupid. I think there are people with genuine dysphoria who genuinely feel they're the opposite sex. But there are definitely a lot of misogynists who are using trans issues as yet another way to shit all over women.

Petal40 · 04/06/2016 08:30

This is my problem,I can't remember what all the terms mean ,so lady balls you've lost me....I feel like I'd need a degree in this subject to be able to follow it.....why are there so many confusing names....