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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I hate this comparison between these two women.

118 replies

quencher · 16/05/2016 21:55

When will this stop?

The biggest crime Michelle Obama has done is being the First Lady. The flack she gets for her looks is immense while her educational achievements and other things that she does are ignored. Feminist who fight for change should fight against the image being portrayed. Am not even going to bring racism into this because with black women they are both intertwined.

In hindsight, what they are saying is for the First Lady to be great, she has to be sexual (media standard of what it means to be one ), being well educated is pointless and please don't be black woman because that won't make you classy. For goodness sake the woman carries her self with grace. She is astute. What more do people want?

I would understand if they wrote about her failures of things she didn't get right. For example never doing what she has promised the public.
Angry

I hate this comparison between these two women.
OP posts:
LurcioAgain · 18/05/2016 15:02

I like the advice of "talk to the lurkers." So even if you think a given poster is not in good faith, address their points rationally and defeat them with argument (there's an excellent example of this on the go elsewhere on here at the moment, concerning a poster who's really been posting some shocking rape myths: responses have for the most part been measured, informative, well argued and informed from a solid basis in law). I totally agree that the call out "ABT" culture is to be avoided at all costs. (I may be touchy about this because friends of a friend are currently at the middle of a Tumblr-induced shitstorm with doxxing, rape threats, death threats, the works, going on - happening in the US, they've had to get the police involved).

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 18/05/2016 15:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

almondpudding · 18/05/2016 15:15

'I was explaining what ABT is, as I understand it. It's a judgement call really, about where the line between 'I will be sensitive to the fact that I have never and will never experience this' and 'you must sit down and shut up, because you are white' IYSWIM?'

Yes. That's what I mean. It was a bit Tumblr, not a lot. I mean the not directly saying it to her, so we're talking about Olivia and not to her, and then saying 'we have just seen' as if we are all then supposed to condemn her.

Anyway Selkie, sorry, because Somehow I've ended up calling you out for calling out, and sorry OP for the derail.

FreshwaterSelkie · 18/05/2016 15:16

It's a judgement call really, about where the line between 'I will be sensitive to the fact that I have never and will never experience this' and 'you must sit down and shut up, because you are white' IYSWIM?

Yes, that's it, thank you. I thought my comment was highlighting something I felt was the former, but it obviously came over that I thought the latter. For clarity, I don't.

FreshwaterSelkie · 18/05/2016 15:18

No worries, Almond. I see what you're saying.

Olivia, if you do want to engage directly and in good faith with me about my comment, I am all ears (eyes? But I do have to go out just now so it won't be until later).

oliviaclottedcream · 18/05/2016 15:33

Oh hello again Buff. OK I'll outline for you what my concern is and doubtless I'll be pretty hyperbolic, so if you can suspend your disengagement with goaders rule, (what happened to that btw?) I'm sure we can find some common ground.

In all seriousness, my worry is that things as mundane and trivial as this bad cartoon is, are far more plentiful than actual real wrongdoing related to gender and race. So when “racism” or 'sexism' is applied to innocuous crap such as this, it actually gets more and more difficult for people in the outside world (that is everyday people without gender/social studies degrees) to consider that racism really does exist. For proof of this –take a look at Donald Trump’s current popularity. For me this seems to prove that accusations of 'racism' and 'sexism' have worn so thin, they aren't anything to fear anymore. If anything he's benefiting from them..

So I wasn't ignoring the OP's posts, I just thought they were absurd.

oliviaclottedcream · 18/05/2016 15:40

Not particularly Fresh. I think I know what you were trying to do. I too must fly , I've said me piece and this is all getting rather repetitive now...

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 18/05/2016 15:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PalmerViolet · 18/05/2016 16:01

You don't seem to understand that the endless drip drip of small things is in some ways worse that the smack you in the face racism acl

The acceptance that this is ok moves the window of what isn't over.

Is it ok that my degree isn't in either gender or social sciences? Am I still allowed to comment on FWR? I wasn't aware it was a prerequisite.

Lurcio I get what you're saying, but the endless twatbadgery gets wearing. Hope your friends' situation works out ok, it's an awful position to be in

Selkie you've done nothing wrong. Pointing out where people have been racist is often helpful to the person.

LurcioAgain · 18/05/2016 16:38

Oh I entirely get what you mean Palmer - the other thread I'm referring to, I actually almost lost it and posted something really rude on, but fortunately my phone decided not to cooperate... something I'm glad about in retrospect, because the work of other posters of sticking to the point and persistently yet politely tackling rape myths and correcting factual misconceptions has been absolutely stellar - I'm just in awe of them.

(Fingers crossed re. tumblr - it looks like the police are taking it seriously, which is a good start. The people on the receiving end of it all, as a gay, mixed-race couple in the Mid West, weren't entirely sure it would be. There's a huge irony there - the SJW pile-on is happening to a gay, mixed-race couple! Sad)

FreshwaterSelkie · 18/05/2016 18:05

Not particularly Fresh. I think I know what you were trying to do,

Tilt at windmills? Grin It's a hobby.

I agree with Lurcio about always trying to reason and engage even if you think it won't get through, because you never know who else might be reading and not posting. But sometimes I can't resist a cheap shot, and I often can't be bothered to bring my A-game when I don't think there's any good faith. I have taken on board the point about "calling out" (shudder) and what that might look like and I'll be more aware of avoiding that in future.

(sits back in a mature and smug fashion, despite lack of gender studies degree).

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 18/05/2016 18:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

quencher · 18/05/2016 18:27

Grimarse in hindsight, what they are saying is for the First Lady to be great, she has to be sexual.......Has this always been the case though, even recently? Previous first ladies did not suffer this (as far as I am aware, but I am a Brit
Probably the way I phrased it may not have made sense. Before Michelle becoming First Lady, the previous FLOTUS where all white. (I think there might have been one mixed race ). The sexuality of the females would not have been questioned. Reason being, they would've looked like their mother, sister or cousin in regards to race and what constitute standard beauty. This would fall into the category of who they would see themselves dating, having children and hanging out with. America has a history of demonising black women's beauty and morals. The media also considers the Melania look as drawn above to fall into the 1930-50s Classic Hollywood heyday look. They always refer to it as when actresses dressed with class. Long dresses, gloves, diamonds and fur coats. Marylyn becoming the a ultimate beauty for all women to aspires to.

Olivia In all seriousness, my worry is that things as mundane and trivial as this bad cartoon is, are far more plentiful than actual real wrongdoing related to gender and race. So when “racism” or 'sexism' is applied to innocuous crap such as this, it actually gets more and more difficult for people in the outside world (that is everyday people without gender/social studies degrees) to consider that racism really does exist.
To me this not mundane or trivial and I do not think of my self as tackling innocuous crap as you have mentioned above. Everyday, a black woman is put down in one way or another. If a white feminist cannot see the problem am trying to fight, I don't see how a white male would have the slightest understanding the same way he might struggle with what a white female would go through. The best way of solving issues is to point it out. Am willing to hear other people's plight and understand where they are coming from. I also expect similar reactions in return. This would come in form of free speech but with respect between all parties. That is how people and society grow and become better.

Silencing, dismissal and refusing to listen to a point of view by shutting it down does not equal free speech. It's oppressive, degrading and dictating what other people can say, think or should express themselves as long as it agrees with what your free speech is. Overall, that is not free speech but inserting your dominance because the cause does not affect you and you have the upper hand.

Let's go back to Michelle and what bugs me with the imagery. When Harriet turban was announced she would be on the $20 bill, quite a few comments came through Loud and clear that she was not beautiful enough to be on an American money. Without pointing out her accolades (which is why she is on the money, not her looks ), to black people, she is like many black mothers, grandmothers and any black persons ancestor. Why should people be ashamed of what she looked like?

OP posts:
quencher · 18/05/2016 18:28

I don't have gender studies degree too Sad

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quencher · 18/05/2016 18:33

The name is Harriet Tubman

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quencher · 18/05/2016 19:09

For proof of this –take a look at Donald Trump’s current popularity. For me this seems to prove that accusations of 'racism' and 'sexism' have worn so thin, they aren't anything to fear anymore. If anything he's benefiting from them..

Racism has never been hidden nor have racist ever been scared or considerate. The media, Now is bigger than when Obama got into power. The media was bigger when Obama got into power than when Bill Clinton got elected.
Any stupid videos or comments is made public in an instant. This can easily fuel tension which is already preexistent. As an outsider looking in, you have Fox News which feeds one group with information while others do the opposite on race issues. People also start to have more confidence when they realise there is more of them out there in numbers. They would feel like hey are able to voice their opinions because people will be able to listen. Trump just appointed himself as the figure head. Sarah Pailin probably fell short because they saw her as a woman not a father figure. Do remember that the biggest tensions of late started when Obama came into power, I wonder why ? Probably they think that they can't let it happen again. Why did he slip through their fingers to become president? They have a second problem on their hands. A woman has a very high chance of becoming president. Could that be a clue to the wearing thin claim ?

Any way, I might be speaking bollocks.

Most people who are racist or sexist will not want to be called out on their act. They love their free speech as long as it does not affect their way of life. This is what the trumps and some of his followers want. Moving forward hinders the white race and their freedom. They have given up their freedom to not share bathrooms, buses and swimming pool etc. We now want our children to have similar educational standard, health care, better treatment at work including wages, all lives to be of equal value and that is asking to much and complaining and always pulling the race card. Of Cause, there will be black people who will use it to their advantage but that does not mean there are millions more out there not being affected. More than likely, the claims tends to be right but the people who see it as pulling the race cards don't understand it or somethings assume such claims don't exist anymore because it's 2016. People can't be racist or people are not resilient any more.

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LurcioAgain · 18/05/2016 19:19

Quencher, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure from her posting history that Olivia does not identify as a feminist (though I am aware that there is also a pretty established track record of white feminists being crap over race issues).

quencher · 18/05/2016 20:35

Luscioagain I don't know about her track record on here but I feel like I have had discussions with her before. Anyway, there are lots of people like her out there. What you would expects is for people to understand basic sexism. If we cannot get people to understand that then what are feminist fighting for? I have also seen lots feminist who think that all feminist problems are similar when in actual fact they are miles apart and should be tackled differently.

What I would assume is someone like Olivia think they are defending free speech when in actual fact they are doing the opposite. I don't why, when writing the responses I had a male in mind.

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