I hate this comparison between these two women.

[quencher]

When will this stop?

The biggest crime Michelle Obama has done is being the First Lady. The flack she gets for her looks is immense while her educational achievements and other things that she does are ignored. Feminist who fight for change should fight against the image being portrayed. Am not even going to bring racism into this because with black women they are both intertwined.

In hindsight, what they are saying is for the First Lady to be great, she has to be sexual (media standard of what it means to be one ), being well educated is pointless and please don't be black woman because that won't make you classy. For goodness sake the woman carries her self with grace. She is astute. What more do people want?

I would understand if they wrote about her failures of things she didn't get right. For example never doing what she has promised the public.

Nasty hateful cartoon.

God knows what will happen if that twat gets in.

So black woman, strong and confident up against air-headed, big boobs white woman, is unacceptable?

So in what way could a black woman be caricatured that would be acceptable? Have a think.

Ok. I had a sleep on this and feeling better than I did yesterday over this. A lot of people will not understand my rage and that's fine. I posted this here because I was on website that focuses on black issues and news.

Am glad that lots of people think highly of her on this site but let's not be naive and turn a blind eye. Michelle Obama has been getting abuse for years.
people have agreed or have problems with the picture that is why it has gone viral they way it has. The fact is it has a lot of stereotyping of black women. Michelle Obama has been called the angry black woman for years. They think that she controls her husband and that is seen as trait of the black woman. They are unmanageable. It's not a coincidence that she is being portrayed that way in this. Her portrayal affects the whole race because that is how we as black women are always depicted. Secondly, she does wear hop earnings. It's not a coincidence that she is being depicted as wearing one. It's saying she looks ghetto for anyone who does not understand that. That is where the line between class with both women is being drawn.

The other reason for my posting this, is that I thought it was from a similar cartoonist as Charlie hebdo magazine.

For the people who are saying that cherie Blair and others have been drawn in similar manner, I would disagree. I have checked and none of them makes her look like a man. The fact is black women's body is shamed because it's different to the European standard. The other, is that most black women are told they look like men. This drawing was not about making Michelle look ugly. It's a more about making a statement on what black women look like. I know that most people will not see it but that is what gave me the rage. It's nothing new. A lot of black models know this because the criticism they always get is that they want models who are more famine. Christie Copland gets complains because people think she is more like a man and not gracious enough to be a ballerina. Her only crime is that she has a body like any other black woman.

This sort of demoralisation of Black women has been going for hundreds of years. Yes it did start during slavery and it's still being carried on today. When black women are portrayed as angry, they are referring to her has having a chip on her shoulder, nagging, sassy and emasculating black men and its the reason why most black people are poor. It's the black women being blamed for driving black men away for trying to take up men's roles. This also comes from the theory that black women have similar sex drive as men. Black women have more testosterone and because of this black woman cannot be compatible in a relationship with a man. Slave owners spread this theory of incompatibility to make it ok for black woman to be raped with no justice. Black women's nakedness in Africa was seen being immoral and ready to have sex. Black women who were raped their cases where never seen as rape because how could they not want sex when they are like men. They could not report it and a lot of women were used as bearers for more slaves who were pricier. They were a commodity and nothing more.

In the open post, I said that racism is intertwined with sexism.
I also thought that in the feminist chat I would find women who would disagree with the portrayal of both women based on looks a lone. Why should an ex beauty queen and model make the White House great with just looks. We haven't seen her credentials based on what she will be able to do. Michelle has heaps of evidence but she is being shown as lacking.

If you're going to apply these standards then why aren't all caricatures of powerful women in cartoons offensive? Or are you saying that a women especially a powerful black Woman can't be subjected to the same ridicule as her male or her white counterpart?

Cartoons are vicious and as nasty as hell. Peoples features physical are emphasised to horrible extremes. Would you be happier then if Michelle had her African features rendered like that? I think if anything she's got off very lightly. It's a silly cartoon aimed at silly people... Really, are we so delicate and thin skinned?

The reason that it's so bad is that the artist is using stereotypes and memes that he knows all people will understand. That, for a woman, to be strong and muscular is a negative that makes a woman bitter and unlikeable and that like a PP said upthread, the better woman is the more fuckable one.

People understand what he's trying to say because he is using a shared language that we all recognise in a way we all recognise: compare and contrast women according to their attractiveness. That's what the problem is.

Give it a rest olivia! I don't know how you can read quecher's post and still bang on like you are doing.

Yes cartoons are grotesque and unflattering. Yes, cartoons poke fun and emphasise flaws and weaknesses. But, this cartoon isn't playing on MO's personal, unique traits. It is making fun of the fact that she is black. Even in demeaning her it isn't seeing her just her blackness.

What do you mean she has got off lightly? Is it with this particular cartoon or in general ? I don't think any of them should be tolerated. That is why I wanted to keep racism out of it and I mentioned this in my open post.

However, I do know the reason why I as a black female would find this offensive based on race and history. In the context of this particular picture it's not rocket science what it's referring to. When I see other women of other races I understand that too but from a different context. They are both sexism and should not be tolerated. When women are being portrayed as looking like men because they are powerful it's like saying you are not good enough just by being female. To achieve you have to act and be like a man. You need to be more male to have the force and power to destroy and build. I.e the picture you have just posted. Probably it's the reason why anyone who has been great or done something that is comparable to what men have done they have always been given names like bulldozers and Iron Lady. Why ?

However, don't get it twisted. The picture of Michelle in this context is different.

Olivia in your picture it's showing that women should be more famine to be less threatening if you haven't got that. So yes, trumps wife will fit in perfectly by being wall follower, focussing on her dresses and looks while her husband serves the country. It's not offensive to be a kept wife. It's offensive when it's used as support for a woman who have worked hard to be where they are. It's offensive when women's looks and standards of beauty trumps academics achievement and other roles they play in society.

Sorry, I meant wall flower.

Ah ha, I knew you hadn't really gone away Buff....

I can get the sexist angle (well I can't really) but I can more than I can the racist one. Michelle is a tall, quite muscular, African American woman - is that a racist statement? No, of course it isn;t.. And of course a cartoonist will emphasise those things ruthlessly. I don't think its beyond the pale that a black woman gets caricatured, especially if she just happens to be first lady. That doesn't mean I personally think it's funny btw...

Also there's a lot of half-witted, conspiracy theorists who believe Michelle's transgender. Joan Rivers said so before she died in rather mysterious circumstances, which has fuelled the silly rumours. This I'm afraid is the nature of satire - it's nasty, vicious, scatological, savage, slapstick and important in a liberal democracy. We can't ban what we don't want to see. If she'd been made sexy that would be seen as pandering to the “male gaze”. If she had her a stack of law books under her arm that would be patronising. How could she be rendered then? I'll ask you again, please be specific..

So black woman, strong and confident up against air-headed, big boobs white woman, is unacceptable?

Why are you assuming the conventionally pretty woman must be an air head?
The cartoon is meant to make Michelle look ugly but interesting that you put your own spin on what the white woman is.

Yes, that's how I saw it. Because of the context. Michelle depicted as all frosty, serious and cold, white woman all tits, teeth and not much to say. Baring in mind it's aimed at the lowest common denominator type, who are impressionable enough to think the white woman is more 'their type', then I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption.

Olivia do you see sexism in the picture you posted ?

If she'd been made sexy that would be seen as pandering to the “male gaze”. If she had her a stack of law books under her arm that would be patronising.
If women are fighting for equality ( and remember that black women are fight for equality not just against men but also against white women), why should they be compared based on looks, the very measurement that has always been used to measure women. The very measurement that hinders ageing women in our society even though they have a wealth of experience due to work experience.

If she had a stack of law books with her, that would even be more demeaning for Michelle. The interpretation would be, with all the education and experience she has as a black woman, being a beauty queen and model still trumps that, Literally. Her careers is being beautiful within the standard that is acceptable for the male gaze. To say that it's what the White House needs to change the look is wrong. Don't get me wrong. Melania might even do better work than Michelle or be the best First Lady America has ever had but sexism and racism connotations should not be used as a means to measure who is best. It's not a coincidence that the cartoon is based on looks in regards to race. Melania is being paraded by trump because of her looks and that is his trophy to show off to the world. Look at what I have got, my wife is better looking and younger than yours.

Don't you see a problem with how both of these women are being portrayed?

So black woman, strong and confident up against air-headed, big boobs white woman, is unacceptable?why do you think this should be acceptable for for both women. Why should strong and confident equal male looking, While the beautiful air-headed feminine?

Why is it that women who exercise are looked at as being male? The idea that men like their women to look like they haven't done any manual labour might be a reason here. Also, to feel like men are stronger and powerful than the women In Order to insert their dominance. Making women feel inadequate while putting them in their place and showing them where they fall on the pecking order.
Women who who have the slightest bit of muscles challenges this ideology and it's threatening to men.

Seriously bringing in something Joan Rivers said into your argument who didn't JR insult it was all done on the name of humour (not everyone's) no one took it seriously

The cartoon is a disgrace. Michelle Obama has suffered from horrendous racism hidden behind sexism

Both women are portrayed in a terribly negative sexist way but just because no blatantly obvious racist statement are being made doesn't mean they are not there and can't be seen

Didn't Donald Trump previously make a similar comparison between Melania and Heidi Cruz? The man is a dangerous, grade A weapon who actively encourages this shit. How on earth can the American public not see what every other nation can?

Quencher, thank you for such insightful posts. I knew that the cartoon bothered me for both its sexism and its racism, and you've helped me to articulate exactly why.

In your shoes, though, I would probably not waste any more wear and tear on my keyboard explaining it to Oliviaclottedcream. That she doesn't get it is because she seems heavily invested in not getting it - you've explained it as clearly as it can be explained. The cartoon is the visual counterpart to the horrific online abuse Malia Obama suffered for having the sheer bloody nerve to get a place at a prestigious college while being black. The number of mouth breathing knuckle draggers who would actually share this cartoon might be small, but this thread neatly illustrates that the population who would tacitly endorse it by refusing to admit that it's a problem is probably quite a bit larger.

In hindsight, what they are saying is for the First Lady to be great, she has to be sexual

Has this always been the case though, even recently? Previous first ladies did not suffer this (as far as I am aware, but I am a Brit - I might be wrong). Barbara Bush and Nancy Reagan were widely admired, weren't they? How much of this is widespread sexism/racism, and how much is just the toxicity of Trump and the kind of people he represents?

I dont see how this cartoon is drawing on racist stereotyping because Michelle's depicted as tall and muscular. She is both those things, and this is a flipping cartoon FGS, it's a mixture of absurdity and truth, aimed at the type of person with a rather shallow understanding.

It's in the nature of cartoons to be ruthless and to mock. Michelle is not exempt because she's black .. Sorry but that would be, er discriminatory.

In the late 18th cen', there was a move to ban Gilray's cartoons as he ruthlessly rendered in cartoons the monarch as fat, greedy, feckless and lazy etc. If you were a cartoonist sitting down to draw a cartoon depiction of Michelle OB, what angle would you take to 'get her' then? A black woman is not entitled to special, hands-off treatment from crude satire because of what her status, her gender, racial background or who her husband happens to be. This isn't Saudi Arabia or North Korea. The right to be insensitive, even about the way someone looks, in particular those with, or with an influence on power, comes with the freedom of expression that has been fought and died for.

Of course it is difficult to draw cartoon of someone black without someone getting offended, but I'm sure Michelle Obama isn't the type of sheltered cry baby who's going to get all indignant over this type of silliness....