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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Man cleared of rape after having sex with a woman who thought he was someone else

515 replies

Felascloak · 14/05/2016 14:29

metro.co.uk/2016/05/12/woman-realised-she-was-having-sex-with-wrong-man-so-accused-him-of-rape-5876504/

I feel really bad for this woman (although I think if I was on the jury I probably would have thought there was a chance he believed he had consent). The headline implies she was unreasonably upset when she found the person having sex with her wasn't who she thought and so "falsely accused" him. Poor woman probably feels totally violated.
Also, what kind of man shags a woman who's gone home with a different guy, when that guy has just left the room for a minute. Ugh. He says he didn't even want to Confused

OP posts:
misssmithx · 19/05/2016 17:17

Nope. Just that there will always be terrorists, murderers and thieves around. Don't go to the middle east and you have less likelihood of getting blown up, don't walk down a rough area at night where murders are known to happen and you have less chance of getting murdered, don't leave your doors unlocked and you have less chance of getting robbed etc

Understand? :)

PalmerViolet · 19/05/2016 17:18

gone, sadly it isn't. That is your exact implication and you have, until it was stated that baldly been happy to state it.

This is what all your rape myths boil down to, that men can't help themselves unless women do whatever magical thinking you deem necessary to stop them. Which is a pretty disgusting view both from the pov that you feel that men are incapable of not raping women and from the pov that women are responsible for men's rapist tendencies.

Do we live in a utopian society where no one is a violent criminal? No, of course we don't. Is it women's job to take responsibility for men's violence to them? According to your rhetoric it is.

misssmithx · 19/05/2016 17:22

It is EVERYONE'S job to take responsibility for their safety Palmer. Builders wear high-vis vests to reduce accidents. They aren't infallible but it'll reduce their chances of getting hit by a JCB

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 17:24

palmer There is no need to tell me what I said, or even to paraphrase it. Who appointed you translator? It's all there upthread. I suggest you contribute something of your own, rather than putting a spin on others' comments.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 17:30

So there is just no point going down a prevention route for women, when the one foolproof prevention route is to for men to stop raping.

Beggars belief that there are people out there subscribing to this

Would you then be in favour of the government cutting funding for the various campaigns they run to raise awareness of female safety issues? And would you walk in a bikini through a 'bad' part of town at midnight on the basis that you could be raped in your front garden at lunchtime so you might as well not bother thinking about it? Or would you perhaps acknowledge that although you could be raped in your own front garden, you are much more likely to be assaulted in the bikini at midnight, so it makes sense to avoid that scenario?

PalmerViolet · 19/05/2016 17:32

gone, I have contributed many times and I am very aware of your contributions, hence my post after you accused me of lying.

I'm sorry you don't like it.

I'm not keen on people who propagate rape myths, but sadly there's a lot of you about and I feel honour bound to expose your beliefs for what they are.

PalmerViolet · 19/05/2016 17:41

Oh, and I am well aware that I am unlikely to change either you or the other rape apologist on the thread's mind, so please don't think it's for your benefit, but there will be women reading this who will read yours and her posts who might believe that there was something they could have done to stop their rapist.

I don't much care what you think. I do care about those women, their pain and self doubt.

So, to those women:

No, you are not to blame.

It doesn't matter if you had a drink, what you were wearing, that you went home with him, that you had had sex with him, that you were married to him.

There is nothing that you did to which the response could be "You deserved this"

The only person responsible for the criminal act perpetrated against you is the criminal who did it.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/05/2016 17:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Iggi999 · 19/05/2016 17:45

They are not female safety issues they are male violence issues
Miss I'm most likely to be murdered by a husband, so do you suggest women take the safety step of not getting married?

misssmithx · 19/05/2016 17:45

I'm glad we understand each other buffy :)

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/05/2016 17:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LurcioAgain · 19/05/2016 17:49

Palmer, I wish there was a "like" button for your post.

I also hope that lurkers reading this thread (1 in 4 of whom will have been raped or sexually assaulted) take from it the fact that the majority of us are on their side.

It is not some indicator of "feminism gorn mad" to want a robust criminal justice system which punishes rapists (and terrorists, and murderers, and...), it is an indicator of a civilised society. The question I think lurkers should perhaps ask is "Would you rather live in our "crazily utopian" world where there is a criminal justice system which punishes people who commit crimes, or in Gone and her chum's Hobbesian race-to-the-bottom world where criminals run rampant and it is the responsibility of law abiding individuals to keep out of their way?"

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 19/05/2016 17:50

I'm not often lost for words but gone and misssmithx have me stumped.

And dragging in health and safety is beyond bizarre.

Let's try a very simple example. I live in an upmarket part of a city. Many of the houses have burglar alarms, including ours.

The alarm is never switched on because we're not convinced the cats won't trigger it and to be honest we don't know how it works. We disclose on our insurance that we have a non operational alarm.

If we were burgled the police would ask if the alarm were on. We would say no. The police are not then going to say, oh well, sorry , nothing we can do, you were asking for it. If it came to trial the defence are not going to suggest I am in any way, shape or form responsible for the theft.

And by the way , my position has nothing to do with feminism or being a feminist.

AHellOfABird · 19/05/2016 17:51

"Or would you perhaps acknowledge that although you could be raped in your own front garden, you are much more likely to be assaulted in the bikini at midnight, so it makes sense to avoid that scenario?"

85-90% of rapes are committed by someone known to the victim. So a woman is more likely to be raped wearing leggings in her own front room than in a bikini at midnight in a bad area.

If you are playing the odds, it makes sense to avoid male friends, family members and partners. Is that your suggestion, gone?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 19/05/2016 17:52

So men are like unfortunate accidents on building sites?

Smile
AHellOfABird · 19/05/2016 17:53

Buffy, I think miss is saying that if women wear high vis vests, they won't get raped...? Or something equally sage.

SilverBirchWithout · 19/05/2016 17:53

The trouble with that approach Gone is you are perpetuating the idea that certain women are culpable in their own rapes by supposed 'risky' behaviour. Therein lies the big issue around all rape, you are colluding in the perception that the poor men cannot help themselves if a woman behaves in specific ways.

If I walk down the road at night in dark clothing and a speeding driver knocks me over. It is not the dark clothing that killed me but the speeding driver.

Dervil like most non-rapist men can clearly identify that the accused's behaviour was not what most men would have done in the circumstances outlined in the trial.

This is nothing really to do with feminism, it's all about accepting certain men believe it is not their responsibility to ensure consent is clearly given. The judgement of this trial gives those type of men the benefit of the doubt and unfortunately relays a strong message that ensuring consent is really not that important.

venusinscorpio · 19/05/2016 18:44

Why exactly would wearing a bikini have any bearing on you being raped, gone? You do realise there's no evidence for that, don't you? It's a rape myth. Sadly a common one.

Kimononono · 19/05/2016 19:58

Yes, I just can't get passed the 'fact' that this man thought it was perfectly OK to sleep with a woman who arrived with another man, aapparently made sexual advances to him, who he knew had been drinking all night, that the room was pitch black, the guy she was being intimate with had just slipped out the room to get viagra. Why would she do that? Why would she make this whole thing up ? What did she have to gain? He wasn't famous. This wasn't regret.

I believe her. My friend went through something similar although she didn't report it. She didnt report it because she blamed herself for being drunk.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 20:06

If others are reading this thread, I'm glad they have been reminded that women are not responsible for sexual assaults. However I would be very sorry to think that anyone swallowed the contradictions and myths that are being put forward by 'feminists' on this thread.

There are people in our society, men and women, who will prey on others. Like any predator, they are most likely to prey on those with the least defences. Stranger rape is not a myth; the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism describes it like this:

'In the case of sexual assaults that occur among strangers or people who have just met, men who drink heavily may frequent settings, such as bars and parties, where women also tend to drink heavily and where a man can easily find an intoxicated woman to tar-get for a possible sexual assault.'

It is not a myth to say that your defences are lowered by alcohol. It has been acknowledged many times by almost everyone on this thread. It would be lovely if this wasn't an issue but it is. Although there are steps that women can take to reduce the risk that they will be a victim of rape, this doesn't mean that anyone is responsible for being raped. It's an important distinction that is summarised well in The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism:

'...approximately one-half of all sexual assault victims report that they were drinking alcohol at the time of the assault, with estimates ranging from 30 to 79 percent (Abbey et al. 1994; Crowell and Burgess 1996). It is important to emphasize, however, that although a woman’s alcohol consumption may place her at increased risk of sexual assault, she is in no way responsible for the assault. The perpetrators are legally and morally responsible for their behavior.'

The nature of the risk is unpacked further here:
'...drinking in potential sexual situations increases women’s risk of being sexually assaulted, both because sexually assaultive men may view them as easy targets and because the women may be less able to resist effectively.'

'Resist effectively' is later explained as having reduced ability to evaluate risk and to physically resist an attack by a rapist.

The article also identifies early misunderstandings in what kind of sexual relations the woman is open to as a risk factor for rape at a later stage which suggests that women are safer if they are clear about their level of interest from the outset although this has no bearing on the rapist's culpability if their wishes are overridden at a later stage:

'...American men are socialized to be the initiators of sexual inter-actions. Consequently, if a man is interested in having sex with a woman, he is likely to feel that he should make the first move. Initial sexual moves are usually subtle in order to reduce the embarrassment associated with potential rejection. Both men and women are used to this indirect form of establishing sexual interest and usually manage to make their intentions clear and save face if the other person is not interested (Abbey et al. 1996b). However, because the cues are subtle and sometimes vague, miscommunication can occur, particularly if communication skills are impaired by alcohol use. As male-female interaction progresses, a woman who has been misperceived as being interested in sex may realize that her companion is reading more into her friendliness than she intended. However, she may not feel comfortable giving a direct message of sexual disinterest, because traditional female gender roles emphasize the importance of being nice and “letting men down easy.” The man, in turn, may not take an indirect approach to expressing sexual disinterest seriously. Research on the power of stereotypes, expectancies, and self-fulfilling prophecies demonstrate that when people have an expectation about a situation or another person, they tend to observe and recall primarily the cues that fit their hypothesis and to minimize or ignore the cues that contradict their hypothesis. Consequently, when a man hopes that a woman is interested in having sex with him, he will pay most attention to the cues that fit his expectation and disregard cues that do not support his expectation. Studies with both perpetrators and victims have confirmed that the man’s misperception of the woman’s degree of sexual interest is a significant predictor of sexual assault (Abbey et al. 1996a, 1998). The process just described can occur even in the absence of alcohol use. However, alcohol consumption can exacerbate the likelihood of misperception, thereby increasing the chances of sexual assault.'

There is every reason for us to bring our sons up with the utmost respect for women and extreme caution in obtaining consent for sexual relations but unfortunately there is still every reason for us to bring our daughters up with a realistic understanding of the types of situations in which they are most at risk of being preyed upon.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 20:10

And yes, I have no doubt that if a predator were choosing a victim, he would stop a little longer in front of a woman who seemed to him as if she would be an easier target, whether that is because she was more drunk than the others, more isolated, or seemed more sexualised.

Felascloak · 19/05/2016 20:41

How do men control themselves on the beach or at the pool I wonder?

Anyway in this case, she was raped ie had sex without her consent, but he is not a rapist because the court decided he could reasonably believe she consented (even though she didn't actually consent). It's unusual I think.

I really hate the insinuation she somehow put herself at risk. I've had sex with boyfriends in their shared houses, with their friends in other rooms, and never considered I was at risk of being raped. I'm horrified there are people out there who think I'd in some way invited rape.

OP posts:
gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 20:47

How do men control themselves on the beach or at the pool I wonder?

Facetious. Obviously some don't and have no intention of doing so.

Yes it's unusual and interesting.

I used to sleep in my boyfriend's bedroom and also don't think that in any way invited rape. Having said that, looking back, I didn't have a great feeling about a couple of his house mates and there was probably a certain level of risk just by being there. Which would have gone up several notches if I'd been in those guys bedrooms for any reason at all I think. But there's a world of difference between being in a situation that is more open to exploitation by a predator and inviting rape.

Felascloak · 19/05/2016 21:04

Interesting you don't suggest women need to cover up on the beach though, even though there is still a risk there. Is it only a woman's responsibility to minimise risk of being raped when she's doing something you feel isn't appropriate for a woman? Such as drinking or having casual sex?

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 19/05/2016 21:25

Hey gone. Any rationale yet for why wearing a bikini in the street would be more likely to get you sexually assaulted? Any proof that rapists choose their victims by what they are wearing?