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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Man cleared of rape after having sex with a woman who thought he was someone else

515 replies

Felascloak · 14/05/2016 14:29

metro.co.uk/2016/05/12/woman-realised-she-was-having-sex-with-wrong-man-so-accused-him-of-rape-5876504/

I feel really bad for this woman (although I think if I was on the jury I probably would have thought there was a chance he believed he had consent). The headline implies she was unreasonably upset when she found the person having sex with her wasn't who she thought and so "falsely accused" him. Poor woman probably feels totally violated.
Also, what kind of man shags a woman who's gone home with a different guy, when that guy has just left the room for a minute. Ugh. He says he didn't even want to Confused

OP posts:
FirstShinyRobe · 18/05/2016 22:34

How did he establish consent?

MaryPoppinsPenguins · 18/05/2016 22:38

Why on earth did he begin having sex with her if he thought she was there 'with his mate' anyway??

Why did it take her calling out someone's name for him to think he wasn't supposed to be there? Hmm

whatnow123 · 18/05/2016 22:41

"If" you believe his testimony. He told her that the male she had been with was in another room and to go and see him.

She hasn't, he has then got into bed. She has then initiated sex with him.

His argument was, he told her the other guy was in a different room, he had a different voice, build and was a different race. She has initiated sexual contact with him. He believed she consented to sex with him through her actions.

AHellOfABird · 18/05/2016 23:31

"His argument was, he told her the other guy was in a different room"

Did he? That's not covered in the linked email. So he contends that he explained to her who he was?

AHellOfABird · 18/05/2016 23:32

Linked article, sorry.

Not sure why race has been cited randomly above: the victim has anonymity so we have no idea of her race.

RufusTheReindeer · 19/05/2016 07:47

ahell

Was a different race to zack

bigolenerdy · 19/05/2016 07:59

AHellOfABird...

His reported account says: "...I walked into the bedroom sat on the bed and started nudging the woman saying 'go and meet Zack in the living room'...."

So yes, that was part of his evidence, and is one of the reasons why her being drunk comes into play (i.e. a sober person's recollection will usually trump a drunk person's)

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 08:44

If she is lying about sex the first time that compromises the credibility of her narrative regarding sex the second time. That is absolutely key to whether or not it was rape because in one scenario there was consent, in the other there was not.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 08:46

That's not rape Mary. Why on earth was she in his bed, come to that

AHellOfABird · 19/05/2016 08:52

"why on earth was she in his bed, come to that'

We've covered that. It was a strange flat and she was invited into the bed by her companion who knew the flat.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 09:00

Then we've also covered why he was having sex with someone his mate brought home... Because she grabbed him. Having sex with someone your mate originally brought home isn't rape any more than getting into the bed of someone you don't know it's asking to be raped.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 09:01

Is not it's

venusinscorpio · 19/05/2016 10:28

You really are obtuse, gone.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 11:16

And your logic is circular and convenient, hell. If I am obtuse, so is the law.

I dread to think what injustices against men and children would be legal if feminists were allowed to create the law. Your approach is astoundingly self-serving, complacent and indulgent to women. It does women no favours and assumes they are capable of having no responsibility for their own welfare.

RufusTheReindeer · 19/05/2016 11:53

Fuck me

I am going to be a lot more careful about who i hug

FreshwaterSelkie · 19/05/2016 12:45

Having sex with someone your mate originally brought home isn't rape

Oh, but it is. Because she didn't consent.

It makes me really, really sad to come here to this feminist board and see all the feminist bashing and rape apologism. Gone, you really seem to have had an empathy fail here - or rather that all your empathy is going to men in an imaginary future peopled by vindictive feminists lying about rape. I wonder why that is? That you're so heavily invested in protecting men at the cost of women?

Dervel · 19/05/2016 13:13

I'm really finding it harder and harder to find anything to criticize about the woman here. She went on a night out (legal), had some drinks (also legal), met a chap she fancied (still legal), went back to a flat to have sex with him (100% legal). The guys get switched around in the dark, and then from her point of view gets raped. Beyond making a mistake in the dark what did she do wrong exactly? Should women never have drinks? Should they be perpetually establishing the ownership of every room they happen to be in?

If we are all human beings and we establish seperate moral categories/behaviours for one group we are being the very definition of discriminatory (and we've also created a deeply flawed moral system to boot).

If for some reason your sympathy lies with the man here, and honestly the more I examine his and his friends behaviour the more questions I have about their conduct, but fair enough we differ. Why precisely must the woman come under fire? Bieng sympathetic to the man requires no negative view of the woman so why do it?

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 13:56

Having sex with someone your mate originally brought home isn't rape

No it's no necessarily rape! Yet posters convinced of this man's guilt have been talking about this as if it's yet more evidence of his guilt. It is not evidence of his guilt, any more than the woman getting into a strange bed in a strange house exonerates someone trying to rape her.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 14:13

I personally have a negative view of all of them (all acting stupidly) or a negative view of none of them (no one necessarily guilty if the misunderstanding was truly a misunderstanding). Whichever way you like to look at it. I don't assume there is a victim here at all and the only reason I have spoken up in the accused's defence (and he obviously does have a rational defence because a jury has found him to be innocent) is because the woman in question has been assumed the victim on evidence that is open to interpretation.

Ironically for a group that wants women to be strong and unfettered, feminists are very quick to read victims and villains into a situation when (as the jury has decided) there may well be other explanations.

Feminists on this board are also slow to encourage women to take practical action to protect themselves in the real world we're living in because in an ideal world they wouldn't have to take such action and they would prefer to hold their hands up in horror as women are raped than suggest there is such a thing as acting responsibly to stay safe. It should be obvious that it's possible to both be a completely innocent victim of rape and also to have possibly made choices that made one vulnerable to a rapist. It shouldn't be necessary to shut down any dialogue about safe, cautious behaviour on the grounds that such talk is apology for rape. It should be possible to talk about behaving sensibly in the real world we're living in without this seeming like an attack on victims of rape.

I wouldn't say the woman in question did anything 'wrong'. She was unwise to go home with a stranger, especially while very drunk. If the accused really did say 'go and meet X in the living room' she was unwise not to go and do that. Regardless, if she really was raped, she is no way responsible for that action having occurred. But she was still a participant in a chain of events that led to her being in a vulnerable situation. It is deeply ironic that a group claiming to care deeply about women are so protective of the concept of 'woman as victim' that it is taboo to recognise this.

The problem with getting on like this is that it eventually backfires against the group you're trying to protect. By all means, educate men - but don't expect more from them than you expect from women. To turn a scenario around, how is a woman supposed to know 100% that a man who has sex with her is of completely sound mind at the time? Is she equally responsible for ascertaining this? If she in any way 'helps' him to enter her by guiding his penis or moving her body downwards over his penis when he's inebriated, has she raped him? What if he decides the next day that, despite blanks in his memory of the event, he was not asked for consent and even if he had been, she should have known he was too drunk to give it? Is he within his rights to decide he was raped at that moment and define the event as rape in absolute terms? What if she disagrees?

PalmerViolet · 19/05/2016 14:51

We're not married to the idea of woman as victim at all gone. This has been explained to you, in little words, so that even the stupidest person in the world could understand. It's not difficult really.

The difference between someone being raped and someone not being raped in exactly the same set of circumstances is the presence of a rapist. What you are trying to contend is that there are some men who just can't help themselves but to rape women and that it is women's responsibility to prevent those men raping them.

Feminists tend to see men as in control of their actions. We tend to think that men can control themselves. You don't. Poor men. Slaves to their criminal actions? I think not.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 19/05/2016 15:17

What you are trying to contend is that there are some men who just can't help themselves but to rape women and that it is women's responsibility to prevent those men raping them.

That, Palmer, is a lie.

Iggi999 · 19/05/2016 16:27

The problem is that there is no practical action a woman can take that really protects them from rape. If there was just one thing "don't do this and it won't happen" then of course it would be sensible to do it. If I ever had a ONS I wouldn't go to his home, but bring him to mine. But how much did that actually protect me? He could still have pulled a knife or drugged me (eg) and raped me. I could avoid going out after dark - but women get raped in broad daylight. I could avoid wearing revealing clothes - women get rapes in burkas. I could avoid being too young and pretty - women in their 90s are raped.
So there is just no point going down a prevention route for women, when the one foolproof prevention route is to for men to stop raping.

misssmithx · 19/05/2016 17:08

It's also foolproof to stop terrorists from terrorising, murderers from murdering, thieves from stealing etc. In an ideal world maybe but we aren't getting that utopia ever

Iggi999 · 19/05/2016 17:13

Did you read what I wrote? You can't avoid rape through your own actions. You can't avoid a suicide bomber for that matter.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 19/05/2016 17:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.