Ched Evans wins appeal

[Childrenofthestones]

Sorry I can't link but it's on the BBC site.

This makes my blood boil. I had seen two guilty verdicts in rape cases on the news recently (albeit one being in Finland) and thought maybe we were finally starting to shift infinitesimally in the right direction but it seems not.

Ele - I just thought the original conviction unsafe - neither result will make me happy or sad.

I've no idea why his pathetic fiancée is hanging on to his hand outside the court room. If he were my partner, he'd have been dumped for the seediness of the circumstances, alleged rape notwithstanding. She's a douche.

On what basis did you think it was unsafe cad? Did you feel the new evidence sheds any more light on the case?

Not being hostile by the way, genuine questions.

Why did you think the original conviction was unsafe cadno? The new evidence doesn't call into question the reliability of the first given evidence available at that time.

Wrt his partner. I have experience of some professional footballers and have witnessed the progression from tiny boys right through to making it as pro. This may only be the culture among those I have been involved with but there is very much a feeling of the footballer is God. Everything takes a back seat to ensure he makes it. The only goal worth considering is that he makes pro and if anything stands in his way it will be someone else's fault. It's also very much accepted that women will throw themselves at footballers and sometimes they won't resist and it's just part and parcel of being a wag. You have to accept it. It breeds a disgusting sense of entitlement but also this horrible 'compulsory' loyalty to the footballer. If his girlfriend has been part of that culture either growing up or for several years then it would be unthinkable to her that this was anything other than a money grabbing slut trying to make a fortune. I have seen how the partners of these men think and talk. Their man and his career is all that matters and is to be protected. I've seen women discussing how another wag was the cause of her boyfriend being late for training and he needs to dump her because she is riskjng his career. It wasn't well received when i suggested an adult man was capable of knowing when he should be at training. No, apparently the girlfriend is responsible for making sure he got there because his career is the only reason she is with him so she should make it happen. It's a really horrible culture. Almost like brainwashing if I'm honest. CEs girlfriend very likely truly believes that this was nothing more than a one night stand and the girl got greedy.

I know from personal experience that I can appear very drunk, and then suddenly, when other events happen, the brain [surprisingly to me on reflection of this particular incident I'm thinking about] springs back again and you can function - and have capacity.

Also - when I worked as a defence solicitor, I'd see many of my clients tell me - typically public act offences, minor assaults (sort of offences that appear in the Magistrates Court), that they couldn't remember anything of the incidents. I got the impression, that they remembered well enough, but it was easier for them to say so, rather than account for what they did. However, it seems that in this case (CE's case),its different, the complainant does indeed have a problem with remembering events after being drunk - one of her previous partners, made this observation.

There have been other threads on MN, where people have said they've had consenting sex whilst drunk and then not remembered it in the morning.

I hope for a guilty verdict but I really don't think it will be. They tried to portray her as a promiscuous drunk and as so many rape myth surveys show people think this equals sex not rape.
Even if he is found guilty his fiancee will stand by him I reckon.

People don't want to think they were raped cadno. They will go to great lengths to deny that. If you had "consenting" sex but can't remember it, who can say whether you actually did consent, or whether you had capacity to consent? There's normally only one witness for most people.

As a rape survivor this whole circus makes me feel sick, and confirms to me that I was right not to report it. I doubt it would ever have got to court as only my word, but it doesn't bear thinking about what they would have done to me in court if it had.

It's a massive thing to acknowledge you have been raped. Because it means you then have a really fucking big decision to make. You have to decide either to pursue legal justice for it or to let the rapist get away with it. Whatever choice you make will be painful and will leave an everlasting impact on you. It is easier to convince yourself (if possible) it wasn't rape tbh. And society makes that very easy to do

So are they deciding how drunk they think she was now? There are witnesses to that - I can walk when very drunk, it's not always a function that fails.

People don't want to think they were raped cadno. They will go to great lengths to deny that. If you had "consenting" sex but can't remember it, who can say whether you actually did consent, or whether you had capacity to consent? There's normally only one witness for most people.

The incident that I'm think about was a sexual encounter with some one at a party - she was a colleague. I had drunk a lot of beer and I was crashed out - in fact I was lying flat out again a wall, with the party carrying on around me - then somebody was dragging me to my feet and dancing with me and kissing me - I recall struggling to focus to see what was happening - when I realised who it was, I was delighted and the brain went up a gear and I was fine and consenting thereafter - and certainly she would have been very surprised to the suggestion that I lacked capacity - in the subsequent physical events, I was able to carry out the traditional male role, shall we say.

I expect if he is found not guilty at least one newspaper will say why was he ever prosecuted.
And then they will be a campaign from his supporters for compensation for wrongful imprisonment, conviction and also for libel.

and certainly she would have been very surprised to the suggestion that I lacked capacity

Which doesn't mean you didn't lack capacity.

I can understand you bringing your own experience into it, but it's just one incident. You're judging being able to perform penetrative sex and your own actions as being consensual. That's your prerogative, you know how you feel about it. But it isn't like that for everyone and surely you realise that it's much more of a passive role to be penetrated, and you don't even have to be fully conscious. Neither of us know whether Ched and his lovely friends are telling the truth.

Which doesn't mean you didn't lack capacity.

Indeed, but if she had a reasonable belief that I did have capacity to consent, then this is a defence.

Capacity can come and go, it's true. But that scenario (I am assuming the two of you spoke and interacted in the usual way?) is very different to being in a dark hotel room with one man, when a man you have never met before comes in and has sex with you without even speaking to you.

Yes cadno, but it's an entirely different situation. She didn't have sex with you and then let her friend have a go too.

the only evidence that she consented is (a) CE's word and (b) the word of his mates at the window

so, does (1)the defence have to prove that she consented ;or
(2) the prosecution prove that she didn't?

Which way round is it?

I can understand you bringing your own experience into it, but it's just one incident. You're judging being able to perform penetrative sex and your own actions as being consensual. That's your prerogative, you know how you feel about it. But it isn't like that for everyone and surely you realise that it's much more of a passive role to be penetrated, and you don't even have to be fully conscious. Neither of us know whether Ched and his lovely friends are telling the truth.

...and neither of us will ever know, but for me, there is that element of reasonable doubt as to guilt.

Because you trust a man who has every reason to lie more than you do a woman who was undoubtedly treated in a horrible predatory way. That's what it comes down to. You can hide in the legal technicality of it all you want but that's what it comes down to. You know full well rapists get away with rape every day. Because they lie.

I am really struggling with the reasonable doubt bit

It scares me that some people think thats reasonable

it scares me that someone could be found guitly after the police and CPS believe they have a case, then someone throws enough money at it, appeal goes through on nothing....no big reveal, CPS still think they have a case and then it goes tits up

I am really hoping he is found guilty again

A7 - the prosecution have to prove that (a) she didn't consent and (b) if she didn't, CE didn't have a reasonable belief that she had.

Just read the mirror live update

Jury are still out but they were given a "Route to verdict" by the judge

From what i remember it was like a flowchart

You have to follow it and it leads you to the verdict