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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Brighton primary school admissions - gender identity

166 replies

SisterMoonshine · 20/04/2016 17:38

I just caught the end of something on the radio about parents receiving letters this week to say which school their child has a place at. And that they should put which gender their child identifies with.
Big question!
I think I'd have to give an essay for an answer if this was our area. As far as DD is concerned, at 3, she is simply DD.

OP posts:
HairyLittlePoet · 22/04/2016 10:18

to see if any of what you posted makes sense, or if it is just an entirely meaningless circular nonsense, here are some actual definitions I can understand:

sex = either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.
male = of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.
female = of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.
Man = an adult human male
Woman = an adult human female

I'm going to replace the word 'gender' with 'X' for now as a placeholder to see if there's anything remotely resembling a definition in the words you posted.

The human experience of X is vast and expansive subject and you want me to put some neat little definition of it into some neat little sentence (so you can pick it apart) and tell me I'm wrong and you're right. Whatever.

"The X spectrum is a linear model, ranging from 100% to 100% , with various states of androgyny in between. The X continuum or matrix is an multidimensional extension of the spectrum that includes additional X identities outside of the spectrum."

"X identity is a person's private sense, and subjective experience, of their own X . This is generally described as one's private sense of being a or a , consisting primarily of the acceptance of membership into a category of people: male or female."

"The X binary, also referred to as X binarism (sometimes shortened to just binarism), is the classification of sex and X into two distinct, opposite and disconnected forms of masculine and feminine. It is one general type of a X system."

Nothing of that makes any sense.

merrymouse · 23/04/2016 08:04

So still no clarification of what gender means. I think we are going to remain in unenlightened.

I suspect that's because pinning people down to a 'gender' based on their behaviour and feelings is in fact very restrictive and not at all accepting of the wide variety of human experiences, but it's difficult to define gender without admitting that.

StepAwayFromTheThesaurus · 23/04/2016 08:51

No , we haven't merry.

And even if we did have a definition we could then discuss what identity actually means. This matters because, despite what we keep getting told, identity is not simply and straightforwardly self-chosen, however much some people wish it were.

OnceThereWasThisGirlWho · 26/04/2016 22:51

CoteDAzur Sorry,am late to the discussion, but, the quote from the American College of Pediatricians...

When an otherwise healthy biological boy believes he is a girl, or an otherwise healthy biological girl believes she is a boy, an objective psychological problem exists that lies in the mind not the body, and it should be treated as such.

Whils I've no idea how reputable or otherwise the college is, I agree with the majority of the quote you posted. However, this bit leaps out, and I think there's an important distinction to be made. Whilst the reactionary right may see gender dysphoria as a psychological problem, radical feminists see it as a societal problem (I think). The person's body isn't wrong, their brain isn't wrong - it's society that's wrong for telling them their brain and body don't match.

CoteDAzur · 27/04/2016 09:24

"The person's body isn't wrong, their brain isn't wrong - it's society that's wrong for telling them their brain and body don't match."

Yes, society is wrong for wanting to fit square pegs into round holes in many instances and this may be one of them. However, we need to also listen to people who have gender dysphoria and what they say is that their brains are telling them that they are in the wrong body - e.g. A man saying he hates his facial hair, penis, testicles, Adam's apple etc because his brain is telling him that his body is female, and that this discordance makes him suffer terribly.

I don't see how this is different than any other condition where the brain's perception of the body or its environs is false.

PrettyBrightFireflies · 27/04/2016 09:42

However, we need to also listen to people who have gender dysphoria and what they say is that their brains are telling them that they are in the wrong body - e.g. A man saying he hates his facial hair, penis, testicles, Adam's apple etc because his brain is telling him that his body is female, and that this discordance makes him suffer terribly.

I agree. But alongside that, we have to address the fact that there are many others who align themselves with people who experience gender dysmorphia but who are, in fact, perfectly comfortable with their bodies. What they are uncomfortable about is the social expectations assigned to the gender consistent with their biological/anatomical bodies.

Until it is possible to accurately distinguish between the two, surely it is prudent to proceed with caution, rather than subject toddlers in both categories to treatment that is only suitable for the former?

PrettyBrightFireflies · 27/04/2016 09:42

However, we need to also listen to people who have gender dysphoria and what they say is that their brains are telling them that they are in the wrong body - e.g. A man saying he hates his facial hair, penis, testicles, Adam's apple etc because his brain is telling him that his body is female, and that this discordance makes him suffer terribly.

I agree. But alongside that, we have to address the fact that there are many others who align themselves with people who experience gender dysmorphia but who are, in fact, perfectly comfortable with their bodies. What they are uncomfortable about is the social expectations assigned to the gender consistent with their biological/anatomical bodies.

Until it is possible to accurately distinguish between the two, surely it is prudent to proceed with caution, rather than subject toddlers in both categories to treatment that is only suitable for the former?

CoteDAzur · 27/04/2016 13:19

"Until it is possible to accurately distinguish between the two, surely it is prudent to proceed with caution, rather than subject toddlers in both categories to treatment that is only suitable for the former?"

No even then. It seems to me that the best way to treat I'm-male-but-feel-female is through psychological help & treatment, just like I-don't-want-gender-constraints. Not surgical. We don't do it for I'm-45kgs-but-feel-fat and I'm-intact-but-feel-disabled, and we shouldn't do it when the issue is brain being wrong about the sex of the body.

OnceThereWasThisGirlWho · 27/04/2016 13:19

...And women who are flat chested should be able to get breast implants on the NHS just like men transwomen can. And women past the menopause should be able to get HRT without time limit like transwomen can.

OnceThereWasThisGirlWho · 27/04/2016 13:22

CoteDAzur It seems to me that the best way to treat I'm-male-but-feel-female is through psychological help & treatment, just like I-don't-want-gender-constraints. Not surgical. We don't do it for I'm-45kgs-but-feel-fat and I'm-intact-but-feel-disabled, and we shouldn't do it when the issue is brain being wrong about the sex of the body.

I'm sure it's because psychiatry is so crap, as well as the general refusal to fund NHS psychology or look at the bigger picture. In fact a lot of people refuse to look at the bigger picture and react very unpleasantly to those who do. Weird.

VestalVirgin · 27/04/2016 15:09

And women who are flat chested should be able to get breast implants on the NHS just like men transwomen can.

They should also have to get psychotherapy beforehand. It is unnecessary surgery, and the reasons why women want it have more to do with societal conditioning than anything inherent.

However, we need to also listen to people who have gender dysphoria and what they say is that their brains are telling them that they are in the wrong body

Wouldn't that be sex dysphoria? If their problem is not with the gender role but with the body?

That sort of thing is not much different from people whose arm or leg doesn't exist in their brain's mapping of the body, but VERY different from what passes for trans nowadays, and worlds away from gender identity nonsense.

CoteDAzur · 27/04/2016 15:32

"Wouldn't that be sex dysphoria? If their problem is not with the gender role but with the body?"

It is sex dysphoria but gets called gender dysphoria (because 'sex' also means copulation?). Trans people say they've always felt female, like they should be the opposite sex, from an early age.

grimbletart · 27/04/2016 17:09

I'm always puzzled how they could feel female. What does being female feel like? I've been one for over 70 years and I still don't know, despite the whole puberty, childbirth, menopause experience. I don't know how I feel different from the bloke sitting next to me on the tube.

It would be helpful if transactivists can tell us what they think feeling female is.

PrettyBrightFireflies · 27/04/2016 19:00

Trans people say they've always felt female, like they should be the opposite sex, from an early age.

But, at the same time, many trans-people don't want to subject themselves to surgery or hormonal treatment.
If "feeling female" is the pre-requisite for being a transwomen (or trans girl, in the case of DCs) then how is this determined?

This thread is evidence that a child cannot be relied on to accurately self-identify; reception class teacher would quickly lose track if gender identity was determined by how the toddler feels about themselves on a particular day. And if gender is so fluid, then what purpose does it serve in society?

PP has referred to DCs distress and dislike of their own body, and I think there is a place for gender dysmophia to be acknowledged and DCs supported.

Unfortunately, the current trans agenda is undermining that by insisting that being trans includes those who are happy with their functioning male body and appearance. People with gender/sex dysmophia are being badly let down by the very people who claim to identify alongside them.

VestalVirgin · 27/04/2016 21:29

People with gender/sex dysmophia are being badly let down by the very people who claim to identify alongside them.

Didn't the genderists even invent the term "truscum" for those who experience genuine dysphoria?

OnceThereWasThisGirlWho · 27/04/2016 21:30

VestalVirgin "And women who are flat chested should be able to get breast implants on the NHS just like men transwomen can."

They should also have to get psychotherapy beforehand. It is unnecessary surgery, and the reasons why women want it have more to do with societal conditioning than anything inherent.

Exactly. Unfortuntely the logistics of giving psychotherapy to everyone who thinks women should be large of nork mean we have to instead settle for psychotherpy for the flat-chested to help them deal with the society those people have created...

It must be so hard* being trans. Really shit actually, because it's such a contetious issue it's like you have to take one extreme view or the other. And then you have what is probably the majority of society in the middle somwhere who don't accept you as yourself (eg. a gender nonconforming man, as the radfems would have it), but might accept you as the opposite sex if you "pass" - with the trans side of the argument egging that on and slowly convincing society that's the path to take. And issues of identity are so important to people - really the core of their self-worth. So to identify differently is a huge, life-changing thing. And to be a gendernonconforming man doesn't appear to have anywhere near the same level of peer support or media coverage, or even, y'know exist as a concept in people's minds, as being trans does.

What I mean is, what makes this all so difficult is that there's human beings stuck in the middle of this debate right now, and we want them to take the hardest path. I realise that's what activists have done over the years regarding various issues but this seems a bit different. It's to do with the way there are two possible solutions to the issue (of being discriminated against or harassed or worse due to being gender nonconforming)... and one solution is heavily endorsed by those with influence. It's like a sort of fake revolution in gender identity is being offered (because that maintains traditional gender roles) in order to distract from a real revolution in gender identity where we reject gender roles as bullshit.

Sorry, got a bit carried away there... :)

*Excluding Caitlyn "hardest part of being a woman is knowing what to wear" Jenner et al. Hmm

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