I'm giving up.

[GarlicShake]

This is more of a despairing rant than an invitation to reply. Sorry! I feel like I've nowhere else to put it.

I am 61 years old. I'm facing ageism & ableism as well as sexism. I have a corner to fight.

I went on strike for maternity rights, for equal pay, even for the factory to have a women's toilet. I forged a career in a world that was predominantly male, argued for my pay rises and trained younger people up to be non-sexist. I've been blamed and misconstrued, beaten up, raped, and carefully answered the gamut of sexist assumptions. I battled for my pension rights and I threatened the bank with legal action when they refused to take my salary into account on my first mortgage. I am still fighting.

But I just can't hack fighting for younger women any more. They're throwing away all that we, and the two generations before and the one after mine, won for them. I can't even tell whether they don't give a shit or they think all their rights are safe so they needn't bother.

I'm not going to argue the transgender thing any more. I'll stick to supporting the handful of FB friends who get it, but I'm not arguing in my own voice from now. I'm giving up on explaining why "Ms" matters - it's been around for 50 years, for crying out loud! People can figure out why the Nordic model's a better idea for themselves - or, most likely, not. Women can congratulate themselves on being financially dependent on husbands, and figure that out for themselves too.

And I think this country's going to vote itself out of Europe. That'll wake a few people up in short order, I fear, but I shall be needed to stick up for older & disabled people like me as our rights will get shredded. I am tired.

I am very tired and disappointed. Thank you for all the brilliant discussions, MN feminists! Good luck.

Tehku: surely judging them on their appearance makes me just as bad

Are you judging them on their appearance or on their priorities in life? The latter would be a more than reasonable basis for judgement.

I know the thread has moved on a bit, but I wanted to pick up on this, because it has hit an angry nerve with me.

It's more a feeling of having sacrificed and fought for younger women to have the opportunities they do, and feeling betrayed by their disinterest (or perhaps worse, their Everyday Feminism style of activism?).

Well I have an Everyday Feminism style of activism. And it might not be as grand as going on strike, but I influence the women around me to stand up for themselves more on a daily basis, and influence men to see the everyday sexism that is so pervasive. I know it might seem weak or selfish, but I'm not prepared to risk my career or home and this way I'm doing something, rather than nothing. I'm happy to lose friends, partners and be labelled a terf, but my own personal line in the sand is at my own ability to survive independently.

I wonder if those in the early days of the feminist movement, those who went on hunger strikes etc would have felt betrayed by the relatively watered down version of going on strike from work.

Sometimes massive social change happens through a subtle shift in attitudes. That's what me (and my Everyday Feminist friends) are trying to achieve.

I can't think of any feminist or feminist theory that says women are easily oppressed.

The rape threats that are the reaction to pretty much every feminist article that gets to males' attention are proof that oppressing women is hard - why else would males feel a need to crush even the tiniest and tamest feminist thoughts? Sure, they likely aren't aware that they are working for the patriarchy (unpaid, too, unless you consider their male privilege payment), but many men spend a lot of time and effort on oppressing women. And that's with a patriarchy already in place!

Also, certain political parties have been complaining that sex ed in schools doesn't focus on the traditional (patriarchal) gender roles enough.

If patriarchy were natural, they wouldn't need to panic that insufficiently indoctrinated children could cause its downfall.

"Really, annoying kid? You read the disappointment, the frustration and low spirits of the OP, and that was what you came up with to lift her spirits?"

The truth is all I offer. Most women don't feel especially oppressed in the western world or hated by men, which is why only one seventh identify as feminist. The OP, realizing that, is essentially saying YOU NAIVE FOOLs!!! DROWN IN YOUR OWN MESS As THe MALE OPPREssORs TAKE YOU BACK SIXTY YEars!! aka insulting the intelligence of other women. Thus I feel no need to offer a shred of sympathy.

"If patriarchy were natural, they wouldn't need to panic that insufficiently indoctrinated children could cause its downfall."

Every major civillization has been a patriarchy and despite being the most inolved with raising the next generation of boys, that same generation, has historically, according to womens studies, treated women like chattel.

I'm also reading a feminist book called rethinking gender in childhood, where he author shows us a teacher who has to intervene every 30 seconds with some boys in order to keep them from dominating the girls in play.

Also alot of feminists argue, that unless we consciously prioritize the feminine, we'll all slip into patriarchal ways.

Sorry, buffy, I think I was getting confused between Everyday Feminism and regular everyday feminism. And the general feeling of being a "not good enough" feminist. I'll be quiet now

No idea what your points are, kid. They don't make sense.

"Every major civillization has been a patriarchy and despite being the most inolved with raising the next generation of boys, that same generation, has historically, according to womens studies, treated women like chattel."

^ I've read that bit a few times, and I can't make head or tail of it. Are you saying that women raise children to perpetuate the patriarchy? And thus women make it? So it can't be sexist? (I'm reaching here). Because you're not wrong, exactly with the first part of that, but you're not right either, and the second part is just plain wrong.

And I am LOLing at "the truth is all I offer" I want to take the piss out that, very very much, but I think I'll just let it stand in all its glory.

Buffy, oh I totally didn't know that about Everday Feminism. In fact the # had a lot to do with me regaining my interest...the world Aunt describes, so child centred and school centred, puts me off. But perhaps if it was tweaked it would work for me. I believe in flexible working for many reasons but free childcare just means the childfree are subsidising it. And crèches at work..is there nowhere to hide from chikdren!

I wonder if those in the early days of the feminist movement, those who went on hunger strikes etc would have felt betrayed by the relatively watered down version of going on strike from work.

I think what is meant by Everyday Feminism style of activism isn't your unwillingness to risk your neck for feminism, but rather the belief in "gender" as a real thing that should determine who is allowed to be in women's spaces. The Everyday Feminism website has some articles that are ... unfortunate, to say the least. (Can't seem to find any, but I know that some bloggers frequently mention misogynist articles on "Everyday Meninism")

Working towards a subtle shift in attitudes is totally okay, but, and that's the thing, you have to know how the system works and what it is based on.

You can give a depressed person some chocolate and remind her that you care for her ... or you can give her a mask with a smiley face painted on it and ask her to put it on so that you don't have to see her depressed face anymore.

I get the impression that some people's brand of feminism is more like the second approach.

Oh slug sorry I do mean #everydaysexism

Sorry, this is why I feel I have to know loads of stuff in order to have an opinion....eek, sorry....

Nah, just had an incident in school today when I should have stood up to the deputy head and didn't. Not your fault at all!

Though I would like to point out that schools are part of the problem though. Sexism isn't challenged in the same way racism is, there's the ongoing 'boys will be boys' attitude, disproportionate numbers of men in senior roles, and such a nervousness about mentioning sex to teenagers that we are failing miserably to teach properly about consent. Because "it could be seen as encouraging teenagers to have sex". That particular quote got a literal eye-roll from me (hence not standing up to deputy head - still need her backing on my consent teaching plan).

So I suspect many young people leave school not really even recognising that sexism exists. And many young women (like me) get their real sex ed from peers, so don't have a good idea about their own sexual rights.

"I've read that bit a few times, and I can't make head or tail of it. Are you saying that women raise children to perpetuate the patriarchy? And thus women make it? So it can't be sexist? (I'm reaching here). Because you're not wrong, exactly with the first part of that, but you're not right either, and the second part is just plain wrong."

According to feminist theory, women raise children to perpetuate the patriarchy because of internalized misogyny.

We're debating if it's easy to oppress women, not if it's still sexist if women perpetuate it.

BuffyReasonableFeminist said:
"Annoyingkid your posts are somewhat inconsistent. You think patriarchy is how things naturally shake down. But also that women aren't oppressed by men?"

I said "according to womens studies", not according to me. I in fact argued against the idea that women were historically chattel, only to be vociferously argued against by feminists who insisted that it WAS SO.

As for women not being oppressed by men, I never said that and it speaks to a misunderstanding on your part on why women aren't identifying as feminist.

These women are identifying as egalitarian, because they don't believe women of the west are oppressed to the point of requiring a movement specifically for womens interests that says mens issues are solved by more and more focus on womens issues.

I believe in flexible working for many reasons but free childcare just means the childfree are subsidising it.'

But people who have children are the reason why you will be cared for in your old age?
Even if you save money instead of getting insurance, you will still need young people you can pay to do the hard work for you.
(Unless you plan to commit suicide on the day you can't work full-time anymore, in which case you are totally justified not to want to pay for childcare with your taxes. But that's not a very common approach.)

/ offtopic

Annoyingkid, I know that many people are more comfortable identifying as egalitarian than feminist, but I do feel the reasons behind that are somewhat misguided.

Which issues do men have that are not caused by living in a state of patriarchy?