Changing roles in marriage

[ChannelFiftySeven]

I'm after some advice about how to change the balance in my relationship. I'm posting here as I read lots of the threads on this board and respect so many of the voices I hear.

Before we had our baby (now 6 months) our marriage was pretty equal. I did the housework and laundry, he did cooking and maintenance outside. That kind of division of chores etc. We both had time away from each other with our friends and also did lots together as well.

Since the baby came things have obviously changed and we seem to be slipping into a more gender stereotyped relationship. I'm finding more and more that looking after our daughter falls to me unless I specifically say "I'd like 11-1 on Saturday to do X, y and z". I understand I'm lucky in that he is a wonderful husband and father and will always put me and the baby first.

But I can't help feeling like the way it is at the moment isn't how I want it to go! For instance, last night I asked what today's plans would be and he said "well I've got (leisure activity with a friend) at 9 till half 10 then I'll do lunch and then friend is coming round to help with DIY in the afternoon". I sound like an ungrateful spoilt brat as he does do a lot around the house but the way it's just assumed I'll be managing with the baby all day after all night with her is really starting to get to me.

If I wanted to just get up and do anything by myself it would need to be completely planned. I know having a child changes things but am I unreasonable for wanting the same level of independence that he has? How do I make that happen?

I hope you don't go to the swimming baths with them just to change DC?

If you do, I'd knock that on the head first, tell him he's a big boy now doesn't need you, then hand him the swimming bag.

It is a bugger getting a baby changed when you've just got out of the pool. The other way to play it would be to take it in turns. One goes in for the splasharound (and stays in to have a proper grown-up swim at the end), the other takes the baby to get changed and dry. Otherwise you simply say "men and women up and down the country manage this on their own every week. See ya." and shut the door.

Whenever these discussions crop up on MN (which is all the time of course) I feel oddly fortunate never to have been criticised for working f-t ever since my ds was a baby. The simple solution to this problem is merely to have a DH who is chronically ill and unable to work. Works like a charm! Okay in reality it has made life incredibly hard but it does mean I've never had to take the criticism 'so you'd rather do [x] than be with your baby, great mother'. However, I take it your DH has never been criticised for working f-t? I would be pointing that out to anyone who felt it was reasonable to criticise.

ChannelFiftySeven, if you're out of the house 3 days a week and have a load of other stuff to do in the remaining time, I still contend you are working full-time and not part-time. If necessary I would consider scheduling work hours (and even going to the extreme of renting office space if that's what it takes) - and 'to save on childcare' I would schedule them for the weekend.

Yes I do just go to get him changed! It's a swimming class and all the others who go in with their kids are women, but I hate swimming and it's annoying with contact lenses so DH goes in. It is a faff to get DS ready before and after (squirmy baby) but all the mums manage on their own.

Yes, I managed with a toddler and a baby, once a week. As did a lot of other parents at that particular swimming baths. It was the only one who allowed one adult to two children. Although dc1 was confident in the water and stayed within arm's reach. If he hadn't I probably wouldn't have gone with both.

"Yes I do just go to get him changed! It's a swimming class and all the others who go in with their kids are women, but I hate swimming and it's annoying with contact lenses so DH goes in. It is a faff to get DS ready before and after (squirmy baby) but all the mums manage on their own."

Well, stop that NOW!

When my youngest was 4 I was friendly with his best friends Mum. One week we were at a school event and the Dads were there. My husband got chatting to the Dad and it turned out they followed the same football team, so my husband invited him to come round with his son and watch the match at the weekend.

I was going out with friends so when the little boy arrived with both parents in tow my husband assumed that there had been a misunderstanding (me and the other Mum had both been scathing in our opinion of football during the original conversation) and she hadn't realised I was going out.... Nope that wasn't it. The couple explained that Mum had come to watch the kids while the Dad's watched the match. My husband said it was incredibly awkward with Mum jumping up to deal with the kids every two minutes while the Dad just ignored them entirely. In the end my hubby spent more time with the kids than the match just to compensate.

The child had no particular needs or issues and had visited for tea unaccompanied quite early on the relationship. I brought it up with the Mum next time I saw her but she seemed genuinely baffled at my confusion/amusement.

Looking after much-loved babies and children can be ridiculously tedious/exhausting/ mind numbing. My second pregnancy was surprise twins 😱 and we decided that dp would need to take 8 weeks off work so that we could survive (school runs, shopping, cleaning etc). He was really excited about all this time 'off' with the new babies and our older daughter. We had pretty chilled out little babies and I ebf them both but he had to also get up in the night to wind/put them back to bed as I couldn't do that with two. By the end of the 8 weeks he was an emotional wreck: tired, bored, overwhelmed with the relentlessness of our days and desperate to get back to work. Looking after young children is hard. Your DH needs to have a think about how he would feel if the roles are reversed. I bet he would be 'nagging' you to make things fairer after about 5 mins.

TBH a PhD is full-time++, agree with pp that you're still in full time employment! Current set up means you get no off duty time at all - that's not sustainable w/o huge and probably permanent damage to your relationship.

Well that went absolutely awfully. I can't articulate myself well enough when I'm angry. I should have written it down.

He was fairly unreasonable and he just doesn't listen to what I'm saying. His response was "ok well I'll have her all day but I'd like to see you out there digging and pulling down walls". And not in a light hearted way. In a nasty sneering way that meant "no I won't have her all day because you can't do physical labour around the house and it needs doing". The more I tried to say and reason my point the more offended and "unappreciated" he got.

Massive sigh. Since the baby came he is a different person.

I read somewhere (might have been on here!). Those that have the upper hand will react like your DH did, defend their superior position. He may have a point about this afternoon, but what about this morning when he was playing sport ?

Oh dear, I'm sorry OP.

I think this happens so so so often when a baby arrives in a relationship.

Don't make this about who does the digging and who does the childcare - because in that case you're both "working" (obviously the digging is the better deal as it's not monotonous and you're on your own doing it!!)

Make it about leisure time and him not ASKING you or even checking with you if you can have the baby

(from OP) For instance, last night I asked what today's plans would be and he said "well I've got (leisure activity with a friend) at 9 till half 10 then I'll do lunch and then friend is coming round to help with DIY in the afternoon".

So you need to arrange to meet a friend for coffee or book a class at the gym or ANYTHING just find something to do for a few hours next Saturday and then say "i'm going to mow the lawn in the afternoon" or say you're going to do a load of batch cooking in the afternoon

Just plan SOMETHING he needs to understand that you're not default childcare on weekends. It's not about him doing the DIY its about if he's doing the DIY and you have baby then, he needs to have baby whilst you do ironing/cooking/whatever your division of labour is

Thank you, that is a nice, concise way of saying it; I'm not default for childcare. I'm sure we can work it out - we had such a fair and equal relationship before and I can't help but think maybe I've just blindly walked into this role as an extension of the maternity leave so it's not his fault exactly. But he does need to listen when I'm expressing myself.

I probably will write things down and give it to him. I'm so inept when it comes to these things. Thank you again.

I think it is time for me now, for the first time in an age! First bit of progress - clearly got my priorities right!

It's a strain on both of you.

So many of us have been there. I have a zero tolerance approach to him stomping off or emotional histrionics.

We have to talk it through and try to realise a solution. Not easy though. It's just hard work however you portion it out.

Perhaps choose another time and talk it through.

we had such a fair and equal relationship before

Did you? That doesn't tally with I have worked bloody hard at getting him to do his fair share in all other aspects of our lives together. This will be such a fight. I don't think the marriage was that equal before the baby given you got all the invisible, repetitive jobs to do actually.

Possibly more pertinent now is how his parents' marriage is or was. It's probably those roles he's projecting at the moment. That may give you some idea of the uphill battle you have ahead.

I think we did have a fair relationship because of the work I put in and him listening and responding to what I asked of him. The chores were divided up that way due to our preferences - I have never been able to cook and hate it. I've tried to learn but just cannot bear it. He doesn't love it but he doesn't hate it. And I do actually enjoy cleaning (or I used to, when I had the time and energy to do it well). I'd rather do the laundry than sweep the paths, clean the doors, do the gutters etc. I think I had it pretty good!

As for his parents' relationship - he has never known his dad. His mum has always been on her own.

I hope you don't go to the swimming baths with them just to change DC?

If you do, I'd knock that on the head first, tell him he's a big boy now doesn't need you, then hand him the swimming bag

I third that.

Sorry it didn't go as planned Channel. Still though maybe some of it sunk in. It's such a mind fuck having a little babbie for the first time, it was like I had a fucking personality transplant for 18 months.

So OP have you made plans for this weekend?

You need to get this sorted whilst you have the momentum.

Channel - the most worrying thing to me is that he doesn't seem to want to spend time with his baby, he doesn't seem to miss his baby.

It isn't just about who does the childcare, its about developing a strong bond. If he doesn't see his baby much during the week then he should be spending time with his baby (and wanting to) at the weekend. DIY, sports and friends need to take a back seat (not forever, for either of you, but for a bit).

Dp (who is by no means perfect and can be as infuriating) used to rush home from work to cuddle dd before he'd even taken his coat off. Dp actively wanted me to go out at the weekend so he could look after dd without me hovering (I wrote long lists of feed and nap routines which probably annoyed him) or he'd take dd out for strolls while I rested.

Maybe its worth trying to talk to your husband about how your baby needs to spend time with both its parents and maybe he'd benefit from some one on one time?
That way it doesn't directly become a discussion about chores v childcare (though from what you've posted you really have got a raw deal).

Its difficult to strike a balance while on mat leave or when one parent works part-time or when one parent earns far more than the other as, inherently, the circumstances are unequal.
That doesn't however mean you have to accept it or not try to change it.

Society, employers and (sadly) other mothers will often try to discourage you but your needs and opinions didn't disappear the day you became pregnant and you didn't cease to exist the day you became a mother.

Thanks for checking back in with me Streetcar. If I'm honest I haven't attempted to talk about it all again with him. We had an awful row in which he said he felt I was attacking him and didn't appreciate what he does for our family. I just didn't have the energy, he isn't listening to me. Or he is and he's choosing not to hear.

Million - I do understand why you would say that. He has openly said that he thinks he will find it easier to spend time with baby when she's older and he "can do things with her". This was a conversation in which I tried to explain that there is lots he can do with her now and that the play time she has can be amazing. He then said it is for me because I'm "better with her".

I do think he has a good bond with her though and he does rush home to cuddle her before I do bedtime routine. In his defence he takes her for walks in the woods a couple of times a week so I can have a bath. So he is bonding. It's just that it's always on his terms. He gets to cherry pick the time he has with her - usually after I've spent all day battling to get her to nap / changing nappies he then gets the smiley awake time.

I truly did read every single post and felt very motivated on Sunday but I just feel a bit defeated with it all at the moment.

Sorry to hear you're feeling a bit defeated OP. I have just come across your thread and it really resonates with the way I felt when my first DD was born. It's very very easy to slip into the roles we have all grown up with, no matter how considerate your DH is and no matter how feminist you are! It seems normal to us for the woman to do the bulk of the childcare and housework, even if she has another job.

In my house, we solved this by each working part-time and my DH has therefore had to tackling potty training, weaning, sickness and all the awfulness that goes alongside the joy of parenthood. In the beginning though, I had to put my foot down several times before he realised that he was equally responsible for the child and life couldn't just carry on as before. It's really important to establish these expectations now.

Some suggestions:

• could he do the bedtime routine every night? That's a great way to get good at it and bond.
• could he drop a day at work?
• could you have some regular activity you do every weekend, and leave them to it?

He will only properly bond with the child if he does the dirty, boring stuff as well as the fun stuff, and it's no good to say he'll do more when she's older. It needs doing now, whether you enjoy it or not! Perhaps try chatting when you're both calm

By the way, it is probably worth renegotiating the chore division now: cleaning and laundry go up hugely once kids arrived (as you may have realised).

By the way, I'm sorry it's you having to do the pushing and thinking and fighting. In an ideal world, he would step up without having to be asked, but unfortunately I think that's unusual.

compsagnathus thank you for taking the time to give me your thoughts.

I think him doing bedtime routine would be really helpful to be honest. I think because he cooks the dinner I always feel like he shouldn't have to do that then bedtime routine while I just sit around being cooked for and enjoying my evening. It seems a lot when he's been at work all day. Especially on my "days off". The more I write the more I see how I'm probably causing this problem myself aren't I?!

Me doing something at the weekend is a good idea although I don't know what that would be. Also, I want us to spend more time together as a family rather than even more time apart. As much as this is hurting me, I do love him and I love being around him. But then I suppose he's getting his free time and I'm not.

I feel like I'm going round in circles!!

• could he do the bedtime routine every night? That's a great way to get good at it and bond.

This is a good one Channel - DP comes home and puts the kids to bed every night, I generally do a quick whizz round picking up toys for 10-15 mins then sit on the settee in peace until he comes down.

Who cooks dinner depends on what time DP gets home, although at the moment it's mainly me - but you shouldn't feel guilty about that - while he's cooking I doubt you're sitting doing nothing, as you have a child to look after (thus freeing him to cook un-molested)