Corbyn - "I'm in favour of decriminalising the sex industry"

[IndominusRex]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/04/jeremy-corbyn-decriminalise-sex-industry-prostitution?CMP=share_btn_tw

Not a huge shock but still troubling to see him say it.

No, that doesn't look strange. What looks strange is perpetuating the Belle du Jour image of lots of money and sexual gratification from grateful and respectful men and claiming to have experienced "the whole range" of sex "work" when you have no experience of how most prostitutes live and earn their money.

"Traditional views" i.e. That women are the servants of men. Feminists call this misogynistic, to generations past it's basically "Traditional".

That's a euphemism and a half!

Seeing women as inferior to men is misogyny. Let's not beat around the bush here.

The women and work handbook by Sonia Carreon suggests between 10 and 20% of sex workers are street based which means 80% plus work at home etc. The current laws put those at risk. Now you have to remember not every feminist has the same position and I found it interesting reading a piece of Feminist Fightback (here) that shows that feminism doesn't agree in itself on what is right. But given that with all the research available Amnesty has been positioning for full decriminalisation you would assume those that understand the industry are in the best place to decide the way forward.

Everyone must have read the piece I have put up a couple of times that monkeys(here again), once educated in the use of coins, traded coins for sex. Prostitution is not going to go away, there is no magic wand that will ever change that and anyone who believes otherwise well can I have some of what your smoking please.

So given the fact that it is not going to go away what is the best way of protecting those women who choose to work this way and providing at least some chance punters will come forward if they think someone is trafficked? No choice is ever made in a vacuum so lets not use the logical fallacy about no choice in a society where money is a necessity. And independent sex workers being able to operate together and therefore able to offer some level of protection and support to each other.

5 Years ago I would have thrown the prostitutes under the metaphorical bus but I took time to read a lot and I am now thinking the same way Amnesty does. The article from that poor young girl does highlight something. She has no protection and criminalising the punter will not make her life better.

There are bad people out there, but the change in laws for the nordic model will not make them go away. I now truly believe the best option is protection through decrim.

"Most" prostitutes are not working on the street, Bertrand. If that is your perception I think you have no idea how most prostitutes live their lives.

Thank you, SausageEggBacon.
A well thought-out Non judgemental post.

Unfortunately it's only feminists who see "Traditional" equate "misogynist" most men will view their own misogynist behaviour as traditional.

I don't agree with this, we need to deal with it.

Bertrand - Street workers account for about 10% - 15% of UK sex workers. (Happy to toddle off and find a supporting link for that if necessary.) There are probably very few of us who have experience of the street scene.

0phelia - Thanks for posting. I've only been working in the sex industry for about 7 years and hope I have the staying power to still be doing this in 20 years!
I've only ever worked as an indie doing outcalls and, more recently, incalls. Never worked in a parlour or for an agency so your experiences are probably quite different to mine e.g. the most clients I've seen in one day is 4, and I usually take bookings of 2 hours+ in length.

I think location and advertising style makes a huge difference to client base too...
My clients tend to be tradesmen rather than professionals. I spend most of my days gabbing over cups of tea with builders and electricians (though I do get the odd GP, I.T. worker or car salesman too.)
Client age range has varied between 20 - 80, and I'm 30. It's definitely not my experience that most clients are "successful professionals who are simply eager for a young available woman to satisfy them".

Given you already work alongside other women and not on your own, how do you feel the Nordic model would impact your business and safety? (If at all.)

Palmerviolet - I did say in my first post that I'm aware my experiences do not reflect that of all sex workers. And I would never want to silence women who have been abused in this industry. There should be provisions in place to help women who want to exit the sex industry to do so, whilst simultaneously providing help with whatever personal issue it was that led them to be in that situation in the first place.
No one should be forced into sex work by addiction, mental health problems, or a lack of other options through economic reasons. It is a mentally and physically demanding job that definitely requires having a certain mindset around sex and your own bodily autonomy.

Out of interest, how did you come to meet women who have worked in the sex industry? You appear to care a great deal about their well-being and I'm interested to hear their stories too.

I'd also recommend googling SAAFE and having a read through their articles and forum. There's a lot of support there for current escorts, and you may find the forum an enlightening and informative read.

Sausage - Thank you for your post

Slugs - Plenty of 'decent' men pay for sex. And sex is an essential need to many women as well as men (it certainly is for me in my relationships anyway!)
A man who pays for sex can be very aware he is not entitled to sex - he's having to pay for it and even then we are under no obligation to see any particular client. If the client felt he was entitled to it he would be pushing for it for free.
And please do not patronise me by telling me what will or will not increase the risks in my job.

I'm gobsmacked that because monkeys do something, it is viewed as inescapable that we would do the same. People in this country are usually pretty compliant, they even wont smoke a cigarette in a pub anymore because it's believed harmful. It's very difficult to stop all forms of paid for sex I agree, and it would require some more effort to police it.

What I am particularly against though is any sort of normalisation or commercialisation of prostitution. Do you think it ought to be treated differently to other professions, or should it be the same ? "You're a pretty girl Jen, you'd make a fortune as an escort, my mate's uncle could put in a word for you if like". Career advice c. 2030.

If men are criminalised for buying, it may have a deterrent effect, but it would depend on how strictly it were inforced. FGM is illegal in the UK isn't it, but doesn't stop it from happening.

Really, fundamentally I think selling sex is damaging and buying sex us damaging to people. To our emotions, and our path through life.

If I look back to my 17yo self, troubled and desperately in need of cash, I walked into the massage parlour asking for work, I got it, made more cash than I thought I would, and really I've done sex work ever since taking a year or so off now and then. If that option were not available, I'm not sure what I'd have done.

Coming out with £300 after a 10hour day as a 17 year old was a huge "achievement" in my eyes. I was so proud of myself.

If I could only find a job in a cafe or whatever because the parlours had all closed down, maybe I would have done that instead. Claimed benefits, whatever. Who knows, maybe that would have been a good thing?

If we introduced the Nordic model, demand drops, then maybe the people who can't find work here will move abroad elsewhere, and my client base would drop a bit, but it's not going to stop men paying for sex. I'm certain NM pushes it all further underground, increases stigma/fear and causes more pressure to be "discreet", secretive and silent, in order to protect your clients.

Decriminalization makes some sense, and still doesn't make is all "Perfectly OK". A civil offense is committed instead, for those related activities now listed as criminal.

I find it interesting that some many people rattle on about the Nordic model yet google escorts/massage in Sweden and there is no shortage of women working. So how well does the Nordic model work in the real world? Not very judging by the ads in Sweden I could find in 10 seconds. In a world of the internet and smart phones the policing will on impact those most at risk who cannot vet clients. The closing of Ugly Mugs in Ireland was horrifying but unsurprising given the state and church moralisation.

As to the monkeys, well of course it doesn't show anything? I would suggest you look at the implications of what money does to any society. But those wishing to take the moral high ground and judge people based in your moral imperative rather than empirical evidence well that is your choice. However not all feminist agree with that point of view and I hope any sex workers reading this realise we are not all the same. Feminism is split on many issues and this is just an example.

I would like to think we are slightly more evolved than monkeys. Crazy, I know.

I can't shake the feeling that brazen is a teacher in Nuneaton with a rich fantasy life..

More work is needed in society as a whole. Women should not be viewed as sexual services to be bought. The unfortunate truth is, we are

The vast majority of women in the UK do not , never have and never will, work as prostitutes.

Nor, despite how much it might suit those with a vested interest in the "sex industry " ,do I think the vast majority of men in the UK actually think women are there to be bought for sexual services.

"I'm not sure there is any legalisation/criminalization legislation that will reduce the demand in men paying for sex, "

I think a heck of a lot of men who use prostitutes would be deterred by being criminialised, actually.

Just as drink driving (which was always illegal) used to happen quite casually but after various information campaigns combined with police checks, has very much declined since the 1980s. And as itll says, just as workplaces and workers have complied with smoking laws.

If the numbers of men using prostitutes declines, the number of prostitutes declines (a result for me as I am concerned about their welfare). Are the ones remaining more dangerous? Perhaps, but if there are many fewer of them to police and the police can charge them, I am confident that this group would also reduce.

"FGM is illegal in the UK isn't it, but doesn't stop it from happening"

This is nonsense. If FGM was legal here (it's illegal in Nigeria now, IIRC, as well as hundreds of other countries), do you think the numbers of sufferers would stay the same or would massively increase?

Murder also happens every day, shall we legalise that? No, because we need to punish murderers.

IfNot - Dismissing me as a fantasist with a snide little one-liner like that doesn't make my feelings, opinions and experiences any less true or less valid.
But if it makes you feel better to outright disbelieve me and belittle me just because I'm happy to be selling sexual services, then go ahead and do that.
I'm not here to gain approval from you, I'm sharing my viewpoint as someone who actually works as a sex worker.
And I really do wish more sex workers would come out and talk about their experiences publicly (the good and the bad.)

Lass is NAMALT really the best argument you can come up with?
Obviously NAMALT. But the sex industry does flow in one direction doesn't it.

Barefoot
Yes, proponents of the Nordic model want to reduce the occurrences of paying for sex. I'm simply dubious that it actually works.
In the UK various practices such as soliciting, running a brothel are illegal. This hadn't impacted supply/demand at all.
By criminalizing the men, all that happens is that sex workers are forced into more secrecy, more silence and denial.
Paying for sex is damaging, I am not denying this. Change needs to happen at a societal level rather than legislative.
Your comparison to drink driving is a moot, because drink driving kills, no victim of a drunk driver offers themself to be run over.

Brazenhussy, I believe you! It's a shame people are dissenting towards you on here.

Lass is NAMALT really the best argument you can come up with?
Obviously NAMALT. But the sex industry does flow in one direction doesn't it

I've set out in this and other threads plenty of reasons why I oppose legalisation of the " sex industry "

I'm not particularly persuaded by your argument that its cause is a lack of jobs for women and the defeatist attitude of oh well , we can't stop it. The drink driving analogy gives the lie to that. I would like punters to be treated with as much contempt as most people have for drunk drivers.

So far as the "sex industry " flowing only 1 way, er , no not exactly, given these threads always get at least 1 enthusiastic "happy hooker"

"In the UK various practices such as soliciting, running a brothel are illegal. This hadn't impacted supply/demand at all."

Changes in law ans social attitude have dramatically impacted the number of British men who seek to use prostitutes.

From the Guardian in 2005, Number of men paying for sex has doubled"

"Two surveys in 1990 and 2000 each questioned about 5,000 adults on their sexual lifestyles. Asked if they had paid for sex in the last five years, 2% of men interviewed in 1990 said they had. But by 2000 the proportion of men admitting to having had sex with a prostitute in the last five years had more than doubled to 4.3%...By 2000 the figure had risen to nearly one in 10."

If men's prostitution use can go up, then it can also go down.

sillage, quite.
Laws regarding prostitution (and also rape) are created by men who funnily enough prefer it when things are organised for male advantage.

Any changes to legislation make minimal difference in reality.

Re what sillage pointed out, my interpretation is that the number of men paying for sex has risen in direct correlation with access to free internet porn.

The law in the UK is tough on various activities relating to prostitution but realistically enforces those laws very loosely in exactly the same way as they apply law against rape. ie only in exceptional circumstances.

"If it can go up, it can go down"
Maybe, but we are facing bigger challenges than criminalising people arbitrarily.

Lass decriminalisation isn't the same as legalisation. It'll never become a free-for-all.

My concern is more protection for women selling sexual services, and more awareness provided to these women who are coerced or trafficked that it is illegal currently in this country for a man to pay for a women who is coerced.
These are the women who need protecting, so the law as it currently stands needs to be actually applied. Not just lip-service.

s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/index.html

"All the sex workers I spoke to, in Britain and in Germany, told me it’s “not for everyone.” Kristina Marlen, the Berlin dominatrix, sees her work in terms of “celebrating the sexual part of the person” (though “sometimes people come in and I am like ‘Ew’. But I can work with them.”) She’s bisexual and currently in an open relationship with a woman. She thinks of prostitution as its own kind of “sexual orientation”.

But, she says, “there are some people working in the sex industry who shouldn’t be there.” Sex workers can find themselves in “very precarious positions and not all the women can articulate themselves as I can.” Even she has had “moments in which it wasn’t clear to me how to communicate boundaries.” You need to be thick-skinned and good at negotiating with strong boundaries and high self-esteem. There isn’t much of what’s been called “willing supply”.

Back in 2002, the liberal left imagined a sex industry in which responsible managers would push out exploitative pimps. Empowered prostitutes would work in safety and the money from this hitherto black market would go into pension pots and the German treasury. Well, they got their taxes.

Paradise’s Jürgen Rudloff appeared in a documentary, “Sex - Made in Germany”, which aired on the German public broadcaster ARD last summer. In one scene he’s sitting in his spacious kitchen dressed in an open-necked white shirt and linen jacket, surrounded by his four shiny-haired, privately-educated children.

Would he be happy for either of his two daughters to work at Paradise, the interviewer asks. Rudloff turns puce. “Unthinkable, unthinkable,” he says. “The question alone is brutal. I don’t mean to offend the prostitutes but I try to raise my children so that they have professional opportunities. Most prostitutes don’t have those options. That’s why they’re doing that job." He pauses and looks away.

“Unimaginable”, he repeats. “I don’t even want to think about it.”

I don't want women in prostitution to pay tax. The idea that one in three times (or so) a woman in prostitution is used for sex is for the benefit of the tax man is just grim. It makes the state into a pimp.