Corbyn - "I'm in favour of decriminalising the sex industry"

[IndominusRex]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/04/jeremy-corbyn-decriminalise-sex-industry-prostitution?CMP=share_btn_tw

Not a huge shock but still troubling to see him say it.

Shouldn't "which model of law is safer for sexworkers" be far more important than the obsession feminists have about whether it is "just another job or not"?

It's those who think "it's just another job " who punt that argument.

Those who think prostitution is fundamentally wrong and incompatible with human dignity (some of whom might be feminists, it's not compulsory) are then obliged to explain why it is not.

I really don't care if feminists think if it's "just another job" or not. The answer to that question isn't top priority. What will be safest for sexworkers is top priority IMO.

Since most of the prostituted are women, it should be no surprise that the #1 thing society can do to reduce violence against both prostituted women and all other kinds of women is to reduce men's very strong, very wrong sense of entitlement to sex.

The Nordic model has been the most successful legal avenue to reducing men's sense of entitlement to sex the world has seen so far.

feminival - perhaps you can answer my question in my last post then.

If prostitution becomes 'just another job' how is that helping the people doing it because they are poor, addicted, or lacking qualifications and see this as their only choice? Doesn't it persecute and drive them underground if they can't afford the medical tests, the insurance, the licensing that would presumably go along with properly decriminalising prostitution? Exactly who does it help?

And if insurance, medicals etc. aren't required, then still, who does it help? How is it another job if H&S inspections of the women's working conditions aren't carried out, to ensure that they're using gloves and masks while dealing with body fluids?

It seems to me, the only people it ever helps are men who want to have sex and don't want to think about the health and wellbeing of the person they are having sex with.

"which model of law is safer for sexworkers"

The one where there is a massive reduction in punters and prostitutes are supported into jobs.

I really don't care if feminists think if it's "just another job" or not. The answer to that question isn't top priority. What will be safest for sexworkers is top priority IMO

By using the phrase "sexworkers" you are treating this as a job. It is not. It is abuse.

I am not interested in making this abuse slightly less dangerous and at the same time conferring validity that slightly less dangerous abuse is in certain circumstances socially sanctioned.

Oh and by the way your refrain of "I don't care what feminists think " does not magically add validity to your opinion. I support the Nordic solution because prostitution is self-evidently wrong. I don't need to consider myself a feminist to see that and it was certainly not feminist theory which brought me to that conclusion.

www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg139/chapter/1-guidance

Heres's some guidance for a carer - ie. another job that involves personal contact. Excerpts:

Gloves must[6] be worn for invasive procedures, contact with sterile sites and non-intact skin or mucous membranes, and all activities that have been assessed as carrying a risk of exposure to blood, body fluids, secretions or excretions, or to sharp or contaminated instruments. [2003]

wear a disposable plastic apron if there is a risk that clothing may be exposed to blood, body fluids, secretions or excretions or

wear a long-sleeved fluid-repellent gown if there is a risk of extensive splashing of blood, body fluids, secretions or excretions onto skin or clothing. [2012]

Face masks and eye protection must[6] be worn where there is a risk of blood, body fluids, secretions or excretions splashing into the face and eyes. [2003]

Holy shit, I got chills reading this. Very graphic, and it will probably upset you, so go carefully if you're at all sensitive around sexual violence.

rosaliehaynes.wordpress.com/2016/03/04/cunting-corbyn/

I'm not saying that it can't be the way the brazen outlines above, and as she rightly says, I'm one of the ones coming at this from an academic rather than a lived perspective, but I wonder which experience is more common?

From the women I know, Rosalie's experience is far more common, but far less heard because it tends not to be women like her that get the opportunity to stand up and shout out.

Yes, that's what I think too, Palmer. I don't want to tell brazen she's wrong, because she's entitled to voice her experience. I just don't think it's representative, from what I've seen in real life, and what I've read on the subject.

And I don't think it's a choice freely made. It's not brazen's choice that I have the problem with, it's the culture of male sexual entitlement in which it's made.

Absolutely.

With the greatest of respect, it's not women like Brazen's experience, the one that gets touted as the norm that we need to be listening to here. It's women like Rosalie's, which is far more representative of what's actually going on.

There have been quite a few people here I wanted to respond to so apologies for the length of this post!

PalmerViolet, do you have any statistical evidence to back up your assertion that Rosalie's experience is more common than the experiences I (and many other indoor sex workers like me) have?

In Rosalie's case, the problem isn't sex work, the problem is child abuse. We already have laws in place for that which should have protected her, and perhaps we should look into enforcing those laws with a little more effort than we do currently rather than picking on the 'easier' targets like two consenting adults exchanging sexual favours for cash.

Drug problems, assault, rape, child abuse, abuse of the disabled, all have laws already in place which should be protecting the vulnerable in our society.
In Rosalie's blog she says "By you supporting decriminalisation you support the men who have raped me since I was 14 years old."

Supporting decriminalisation within the sex industry does not equate to supporting rape or child abuse.

Sillage - You say "The Nordic model has been the most successful legal avenue to reducing men's sense of entitlement to sex the world has seen so far."

Have you looked up Sweden's rape statistics in the last couple of decades? I'd say they still have a pretty big problem with male sexual entitlement.
Stop listening to Harriet Harman, she has a habit of telling porkies and really doesn't care about the safety of sex workers at all.

Greentomatojam - I'm glad you asked about health and safety. My health is extremely important to me, and my livelihood depends on it, so of course I use condoms and get myself tested regularly (which is more than the porn industry is willing to do but that's another gripe for another thread...)
I also have a partner and I wouldn't risk his sexual health either by putting my own at risk.
Do I believe this is a common attitude in the sex industry?
I honestly have no idea what other consenting adults chose to do with their own bodies and sexual health. My concern is my own health.
But I suspect most other sex workers would be careful too - our livelihood depends on us being in good health.

summerfloweragain - Your post was thought provoking. Yes, there are a lot of people out there who are failed by other social attitudes and provisions.
Why do men seek emotional comfort through paid-for sex and women don't? I don't know. But, in my experience, I find many men to have their self-worth tied up in their sexuality to a huge degree. The same way many women have their self-worth tied up in appearing sexually available to men.
Though I could just be talking bollocks there I'm really not academically inclined enough to unpick the issue with any great success!

Brazen, I'm not Palmer, but I do agree with her. I base my theory that Rosalie's experience is more representative on some reading that I've done that suggests that as many as 85% of prostitutes enter prostitution when they're under 18. And they tend to come from vulnerable backgrounds - in care, having run away etc. So no, we don't protect children and vulnerable youth the way that we ought to, not at all. I can dig out some research if it's of interest. IIRC, they are global stats.

85% of prostitutes enter prostitution when they're under 18.

and

IIRC, they are global stats.

That percentage may be true on a global scale, but we're discussing sex work in the UK and UK law specifically.
Muddying the debate with irrelevant and misrepresentative statistics doesn't help. Prostitution in Brazil, for example, is a completely different beast to prostitution in the UK.

I'm really not academically inclined enough to unpick the issue with any great success!

That's odd, because use of "unpick" in this context is very academic language.

Most street prostitutes in the UK start when they are still (abused) children.

Yeah, I got that vibe too IfNot. The immediate call for research papers. Sadly, I'm not an academic, so don't have access to them, guess I'll just tell the women I know that we have to collectively STFU then.

Most prostituted women are not 'happy hookers'. Iirc, about 15% of them are.

I am a sex worker. The whole range, worked in massage parlours (full personal service) Did escorting with a few agencies, moved on to hostess at sex parties (by far the best environment, but having sex with 15-20 men in 2 hour time frame with several other women doing the same) Also a few porn films. 20ish years experience in total

My opinion is that it's more complex than decriminalization / criminalization or Nordic model.

More work is needed in society as a whole. Women should not be viewed as sexual services to be bought. The unfortunate truth is, we are.

Many of my clients treat me well, lavish me with compliments and affection, money and sexual gratification. But I also know most of them are married.

Many of my clients are polite, successful professionals who are simply eager for a young available woman to satisfy them. Many hold traditional views of life. I do not meet blatant misogynistic or "bad" men. Not that they behave that way toward me.

But there is an underlying problem in our society that treats women as sexual servants to men, and feminism is the only outlet where certain problems like these are discussed. While feminism remains a subculture, with it's mainstream opponent; patriarchy, these problems are not going to be resolved.

0phelia, in what way do they hold traditional views?

"I am a sex worker. The whole range,"

Street prosititution?

"Traditional views" i.e. That women are the servants of men.
Feminists call this misogynistic, to generations past it's basically "Traditional".

Corbyn makes a good point. Decriminasing won't make it "A-OK" but would provide more protection. It basically moves it into the category of "civil offense" rather than "criminal offense" which saves a lot of time and effort and allows some protection of women in the sex industry.

In my years of experience, I've seen how the tighter regulation of Massage parlours made it harder for women to work there, so they/we simply moved to flats. I've seen the growth of online porn and how it has affected men's perception towards sexual activity, I've seen a huge huge increase in the numbers of Eastern Europeans coming in as sex providers and how that has made services cheaper...

I would like to see more protection of women in the sex industry, but most of all I would to see a shift in society as a whole. Changes to the law simply move the situation around. I'm not sure there is any legalisation/criminalization legislation that will reduce the demand in men paying for sex, having most of the money, women "choosing" to sell sexual services because the situation runs so deep into societies psyche.

Decriminalization will not make an iota of difference, apart from perhaps making the UK a more attractive destination for traffickers but only v slightly, as there is already a lot of trafficking anyway.

I think my original point was that the mainstream (popular culture/education/people in positions of power) needs to be more feminist, somehow. (now I'm rambling sorry).

BertrandRussell, no I've never done street prostitution.

So. Not "the whole range" then.

Sorry, on another site I'm on it's the norm to briefly summarize your experiences so people get to know each other. Probably looks a bit strange on this site!