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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Corbyn - "I'm in favour of decriminalising the sex industry"

311 replies

IndominusRex · 04/03/2016 13:14

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/04/jeremy-corbyn-decriminalise-sex-industry-prostitution?CMP=share_btn_tw

Not a huge shock but still troubling to see him say it.

OP posts:
WomanWithAltitude · 11/03/2016 23:05

It's a troll...

MassiveStrumpet · 11/03/2016 23:06

If you think that I am a troll then report me to MNHQ. They can ask me for proof of my identity as a prostitute which would be easy to give. I'd share it here but God only knows what some of you would do with it.

WomanWithAltitude · 11/03/2016 23:09

Not you, dusello. I've reported.

WomanWithAltitude · 11/03/2016 23:11

They've just spammed a few threads with obnoxious comments. Mnhq appear to be quick on the button this evening though.

MassiveStrumpet · 11/03/2016 23:12

Oh! Yes - so quick I didn't see it.

MassiveStrumpet · 11/03/2016 23:19

"I didn't put that very well. It's not just the violence which makes pimps wrong."

I see what you are saying.

But as I explained - sometimes it is advantageous to have a third party facilitating prostitution. I am generally very leery of such pimps - I don't have a whole lot of respect for agency owners, in particular. However, a lot of sex workers are not able to provide their own work venues and are perfectly happy to work at a parlour or for an incall agency or even a Soho walkup.

Being completely independent is a lot of work. I put in very long hours every week* and about a quarter of my gross income goes to overheads.
I rent a flat, which taking into account utilities/wifi/council tax costs nearly a thousand pounds a month. I also travel to other parts of Britain to work from hotels - so more costs, there. I have to stay on top of a lot of different advertising channels, answer the damn phone all day long, and generally put a lot of effort into setting everything up. If I thought I could just show up for the day at a brothel and go home with as much money as I net now, I would seriously consider it.

MassiveStrumpet · 11/03/2016 23:25

Oh, I forgot to put the *footnote in: when I say that I put in a lot of hours I mean that I am sat in my flat for many hours a day, relatively few of which are spent in bookings. I probably work about 60 hours a week, but spend 10-20 hours with clients.

There are parlours in my city where you're not put on the rota unless you can do at least 7 out of 12 hours in actual bookings (that's generally 10-14 punters) and many girls will work nearly 12 hours solid. It sounds like a nightmare but they go home with a lot of money at the end of the shift and they've expended relatively little mental energy earning it. I'm too old for that sort of thing, now, but I can see the appeal.

I've heard plenty of girls bitch about what it's like to work in those places and they prefer being independent, but none of them were forced to work there and they all freely chose it over other options like working in fast food or retail.

MassiveStrumpet · 12/03/2016 01:58

I asked for an earlier post to be removed as I think I allowed my temper to get the better of my judgement and was unnecessarily aggressive. I apologise for that.

Noneedforasitter · 12/03/2016 06:26

It seems to me that Massive, Brazen and Ophelia have all provided thoughtful accounts of the issues, based on first hand experience. To a greater or lesser extent, all three have identified issues which need addressing. They have done so eloquently and respectfully. Unfortunately, some of the responses to their posts have not shown the same respect. I would have hoped that any woman posting genuinely held view points based on actual experience on the feminist section of MN would at least get respect from all posters. Sadly that hasn't happened here.

sillage · 12/03/2016 16:59

Noneedforasitter, shall we assume from your post that you agree with the pro-ho debaters that RosalieHaynes64 comes off like a manipulative bitch lying about being a prostitute because she moralistically despises sex workers and vindictively wants to make prostitution look bad?

Just trying to figure out if you believe everything you read on the internet or if there are some things written on the internet you don't swallow whole.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 12/03/2016 17:10

sillage The comment about believing everything you read on the Internet can apply equally to Rosalie Hayes' blog. I'm not sure it all stacked up either.

I have read Ophelia's, Brazen's and Strumpet's posts. If anything they have firmed up my view that anything which normalises pornography is wrong. I find much of what they are saying quite chilling- it's not so much the brutality which is involved (as Rosalie describes) but the sheer mundane ordinariness of the way they describe it.

Does that make sense? No decent human being could tolerate any one being treated as Rosalie describes- but as Ophelia et al describe? I can see some being persuaded that as long as it can be made safe, then what is the problem?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 12/03/2016 17:13

Sorry "normalises prostitution"

sillage · 12/03/2016 17:27

Agreed that no one has to believe anything they read on the internet. That's why making cogent, reasonable points in a debate is so much more important that a stranger demanding other strangers, "respect my authority!"

There is no sense behind the trite retort, "I got sex worker friends who say 'nuh uh' to all the research, police reports, and news articles."

MassiveStrumpet · 12/03/2016 18:27

I don't think Rosalie Haynes comes across as a manipulative bitch, etc etc. I have read every word of her blog and all of her tweets. I believe that she's a woman in a great deal of pain and I feel sorry for her. Her pain and anger sound genuine to me. Her stories do not. They don't added up.

Noneedforasitter · 12/03/2016 18:34

Sillage - honestly I don't know what to think about the Rosalie Hayes blog. She describes three horrific crimes in her blog: child abuse, rape and assault, with the assault at least well documented with primary evidence. So why not go to the police? If a victim goes to the trouble of setting it all out in a blog, why not hand it over to the criminal justice system? I just don't understand that. Maybe she has, and the blog is historic? I can't imagine the police would ignore an illegal brothel where there was such violent activity. I also don't understand why she keeps going back. It is very hard to imagine how the situation is perpetuated.

But I'm not sure it matters much whether you believe the blog is real or not, because I certainly believe all of those things can and do happen. Women are raped, including sex workers; children are abused and women are assaulted. The question is what should be done to prevent it.

The Rosalie argument seems to run along the lines of "this is horrific so let's criminalise prostitution". But all the horrific descriptions in the blog are already crimes (including the operation of her brothel). So it begs the question, what would expanding the set of crimes achieve for RH?

TheSunnySide · 12/03/2016 19:00

I have written a blog about my abuser. I haven't been to the police.

MassiveStrumpet · 12/03/2016 19:08

noneedforasitter I hadn't even thought about that. Everything she describes, would be no less likely under full criminalisation.

Rosalie posted yesterday another incident. She went to uni to tell someone about her situation, but there was no one to talk to (not clear what she meant.) She went to the toilet. A recent client saw her and followed her and said she hadn't given him enough time when he'd met her. He then raped her in the restroom, and then made two small slices on her forearm to teach her a lesson.

According to her blog, she has been violently attacked at least four times in the past month - twice to the point she thought she might die. She's posted photos of bruises and cuts.

To me, the injuries look self inflicted.

She claims that she doesn't get paid. Her pimp collects all of her money. According to her, she's lucky because she's allowed to go home, but other girls are trapped in the brothel.

She's apparently told someone who tried to help her that she can't quit until next year, but not why.

Offers of help are ignored, and anyone trying to understand the situation by asking any questions at all is cursed at.

She says she lives with her mother - And her mother doesn't know anything about what's going on, in spite of seeing blood in her bed and bruises on her body when she's undressing.

She says that nobody at uni has any idea that anything is wrong at all.

So, she gets wounds to her thighs and forearms, but nobody hits her face. I find this very odd. One careful abuser may avoid the face, but why would a succession of strangers bother?

I cannot imagine why she would tolerate this situation. I've read many a story on here by women in abusive relationships. Most of them blame themselves and make excuses for their abusers. It's like Stockholm Syndrome. But Rosalie never does. She consistently asserts that she is being raped and abused. I'm unable to believe that someone who is not physically compelled but not brainwashed would return to the abuse again and again.

Her rhetoric is full of all the terms of radical feminism, right down to her language for transwomen. It's not consistent with a helpless victim or someone who has been manipulated and worn down into accepting abuse.

MassiveStrumpet · 12/03/2016 19:14

Sunnyside many victims don't go to the police and I can imagine that it's helpful to blog.

Are you still in that abusive situation? If you are, are you able to respond to concerned readers' questions about how you can be helped or why you can't leave without feeling attacked? I know it's not as simple as "why don't you leave?" but would you feel attacked if asked, "why do you feel as if you can't leave?"

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 12/03/2016 23:18

Her pain and anger sound genuine to me. Her stories do not. They don't added up

I agree. I haven't agreed with most of what you have said Massive . I'm not sure either side can make much of her individual case other than she seems to be very troubled.


MassiveStrumpet · 13/03/2016 13:04

Rosalie is now lashing out at people offering to help her by accompanying her to the police or mother. She's saying that to offer help in any form is somehow an attack on her.

The only acceptable response to her alarming posts is to retweet and praise her for her courage. Everything else is unacceptable.

michelleare · 18/03/2016 17:27

Corbyn's views may be unpopular with feminists but sexworkers are supportive of his views:

www.theguardian.com/voluntary-sector-network/2016/mar/04/jeremy-corbyn-right-decriminalising-sex-industry-way-forward

michelleare · 18/03/2016 17:28

Rosalie is a liar and fraud btw

SpeakNoWords · 18/03/2016 18:09

Some sexworkers, not all, surely. Do you think Germany have got it about right then?

MassiveStrumpet · 18/03/2016 20:55

I think Germany has a system of legalisation, rather than the decriminalisation that the sexworker organisations say is best. I am not sure how that works out in practice, though.

I am not keen on the system as it is in Germany if it means big corporate chains of brothels.

Personally, I'm happy with things the way they are now - essentially decriminalisation. It's illegal to control prostitution for gain or run a brothel. But, then, I would as I work independently. For all I know, there are prostitutes who would love to work in big, corporate brothels.

raycstory · 18/03/2016 22:58

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