porn found

[madwomanacrosstheroad]

My husband's phone is linked to my Dropbox as he had photos of the kids on his phone and we wanted them all on one place. I was looking for something and discovered several porn pictures uploaded onto dropbox.
Asked my husband about this and he stated he was "just messing around". The stuff was "soft porn", the type of stuff I found under my eldest child's bed when he was a young teen.
I am horrified and shocked. My issue is not that he was looking at other women or naked bodies.
It is the exploitative nature of the porno industry, the objectification of women and children. What does that say about our sexual relationship? What does it say about his view of women?
We have been together for a long time. He is quite articulate about politics, the nature of exploitative relationships etc.

[SomeDyke]

"Great post, Bertrand."
Ditto!

I think of it like this -- is there a moral objection to using an ipod in and of itself? No (unless you're amish or mennonite). Is there a moral objection to porn? I think so. So although both of them (and many other products we use everyday) may have arguments against their use based on the way they are produced, porn is different in that there are many arguments against it in the current state of society, whereas not so many for ipods.

And as women we ought to take this seriously given the large number of women who aren't totally happy about their partners use of porn, their personal objections to it, the effect they feel it has on their own love-lives and how it makes them feel about their own sexuality and their own bodies. Add in problems with production, and effects on youth, and it really isn't a happy everyday product, for which all of us silly girlies just need to get over our hang-ups over sex and looking at pictures of bare naked ladies.....................

Oh, and isn't that a clever turn of phrase! Porn isn't just pictures of naked ladies. Now I'm sure that there are some people able to get sexually aroused over some portraits in the National Gallery, or lingerie catalogs (and they are at least spared extra expense!), but we all know what we are talking about here -- pictures of women, naked or otherwise, produced specifically to be sexually arousing to the male consumer. Simple product description.

[BarefootAcrossHotLegoPieces]

Good post, some dyke. That's helped articulate my thoughts on the differences here.

[chilipepper20]

all electronics companies are equally culpable

that's not true. there are different degrees of bad, and there are some good ones. Fairphone is an android phone that seeks to address this. and there is certainly fairtrade chocolate.

I wasn't trying to make you give up your phone. just looking for consistency.

now, is there ethical porn? i've heard a few people talk about it. if you google it, there is a guardian article on it, but I didn't read it.

[BertrandRussell]

Chilli- you obviously only read half my post, despite me trying very carefully to explain. You appear to have a vested interest in supporting porn, so whatever I say you're going to carry on doing that. So I, as they say, am out.

[Bumbledumb]

Porn is exploitative and damaging- both to the people involved in it and everyone else. It perpetuates a mysogynist culture that damages all women, perpetuates the patriarchy and complete skews young people's view of sex and relationships. It is damaging to the individual that uses it as well as the people that make it.

I don't doubt that this is what you believe, but is there any evidence that any of the above is true?

Disclosure, I am Irish. In the early 20th century Ireland went through a phase where the government and church conspired to impose a high level of social morality on the population. Prostitution, contraception, and pornography were banned. That social experiment left scars which echo to this day, and as anyone who grew up in Ireland in the last century will tell you, it completely skewed young people's view of sex and relationships. In particular, it condemned young women who failed to fit in this pure society.
That is why I fear the anti-porn argument.

In any case, the horse has bolted. Forty or fifty years ago, you could contain the porn industry because it was expensive to make and relied on physical chains of distribution. These days anyone can make and distribute porn. All you need is a phone and some participants.

[Bumbledumb]

we all know what we are talking about here -- pictures of women, naked or otherwise, produced specifically to be sexually arousing to the male consumer. Simple product description.

Gay porn does not fall under that simple product description, nor does pornographic literature. Who gets to decide whether something is erotic or pornographic?

[SomeDyke]

"Gay porn does not fall under that simple product description" Except we weren't talking about gay male porn, or lesbian porn, but the main money-spinner, heterosexual porn for men.

Pornographic literature is, frankly, irrelevant.

The other supposed arguments are just pretending that porn is the equivalent of proper education and information about sex, and that the flipside of porn is repression of sexuality. That's what the pornographers would have you believe! Sorry, we have seen through the 'sexual revolution' stuff of the sixties now.

"In any case, the horse has bolted." Nope, if men didn't want to keep looking at porn, there would be no porn industry. Sometimes seems to be the non-feminists who want to argue that men can't help themselves when it comes to porn, prostitution etc etc. I keep believing the opposite, but then I'm a hopeless optimist!

Focus! Women are saying they are not happy with their men viewing porn, or what it is doing to the sexual development of their kids. Can we do something a little better than -- tough, we can't eradicate it, you'll just have to get used to it............................

[BarefootAcrossHotLegoPieces]

Pornographic or erotic literature uses words or pictures not real people. Ergo, real people are not harmed in the making of such erotica.

[Bumbledumb]

So the graphic novels of Milo Manara, for example, are fine? You would have no problem with your men reading them?

[SomeDyke]

Okay, why this fascination with defining precisely where the boundary between porn and non-porn is? Classic derail, frankly. Necessary for legal cases, but not helpful in this case where the relevant people are the women who object to what their partners or kids are viewing. The fact that their next door neighbour or their postwoman might not consider it porn is irrelevant.

Of course, the short answer here is the viewer, the partner, considers it to be porn since it acts as porn for them. That is after all why they are viewing it. What the man on the Clapham omnibus thinks of the matter is irrelevant (as long as he isn't viewing it as porn on the aforesaid omnibus!).............

[BarefootAcrossHotLegoPieces]

Never seen them, have no interest in looking them up.

Like Bertrand, I'm done here. Hope OP got help for her actual question on relationships or somewhere else.

Nighty night.

[itllallbefine]

Just remember that bertrand, some dyke et al. are giving their opinion there are people who call themselves feminists who are not only happy to watch porn, but who make porn. Which ones are the real feminists ? Who gets to decide ? Their views are incompatible with Bertrand, Barefoot, SomeDyke etc, but yet both say that their feminism informs their positions, no wonder people are confused.

The positions set forth here as feminist, are no more a "feminist" position any more than it is a "conservative" position to want to leave the EU.

[BertrandRussell]

Just remember that bertrand, some dyke et al. are giving their opinion there are people who call themselves feminists who are not only happy to watch porn, but who make porn

There are women who identify as feminists who are involved in discussion about, development of and making of ethical porn.

I would be very interested to learn about any feminists involved in mainstream porn. Could you tell me about them?

[CaptainSnootyofthePoshBrigade]

Actually, the definition of porn is relevant to this discussion. This tactic of accusing people of derailing the discussion when they have an inconvenient point is more what I would define derailing.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Bertrand Not sure what relevance it is whether or not there are women who call themselves feminists and make porn. You surely aren't denying there are women who call themselves feminists and who are pro-porn. A very quick Google brings up plenty of articles on that subject.

This was one of them- a debate between Sarah Ditum and Gail Dines (disclaimer I have vaguely heard of both of them but beyond the fact they both call themselves feminists, 1 is not anti-porn and one is, I don't know anything else about either of them. I don't need either of them to tell me or validate what I should think about porn)

www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/is_porn_hijacking_our_sexuality_a_response

I asked at the beginning of this thread about the distinction that was being made about "misogynistic women" who are pro-porn and "feminists who are pro-porn". The point wasn't clarified.

I don't agree with itsallfine about pornography. I think it is harmful. However itsallfine is correct -yours and my dislike /disapproval is our opinion.

The 2 of you can fight it out along with Sarah Ditum and Gail Dines and whichever feminists support your respective sides as to which of you are the better feminists.

It makes no difference to my distaste/disapproval of porn what camp I'm choosing not to be in.

[BertrandRussell]

"Bertrand Not sure what relevance it is whether or not there are women who call themselves feminists and make porn"
It was't me that raised the point. I know that there are pro porn feminists but as far as I know there aren't any who are pro mainstream porn- the debate is often about how to produce ethical porn.

[RufusTheReindeer]

if my husband knew i didnt like him looking at porn and still did it knowing that he was upsetting me then that would be a deal breaker for me

some women have a problem with it and some don't it doesnt matter whether they are feminists or not

I do agree that porn and its potential affect on women as a class makes it a feminist issue

I also agree completely (i think...might have missed something ) with somedyke

[itllallbefine]

Bertrand You're moving the goal posts, are you now differentiating between bad porn and good porn, i thought it was all bad ?

I thought the problem was that all porn perpetuates misogyny, which clearly it doesn't. It was suggested that being unsure of the provenance was reason enough not to watch it, even though reddit etc appears to be full of people making it themselves on smartphones. What i'm wondering is what the objection is to this exactly, if you could be sure that no one was harmed in the making of the porn - would it still be bad ?

I'm not here to defend the "mainstream" porn industry, I don't like it either, so please don't ask me to produce evidence of women who identify as feminist who make mainstream porn movies, although i bet you there are some.

[whatnow123]

Bertrand - Look up Nina Hartley. She is as mainstream as a porn actress can be, and is a feminist. I'm sure there are many more. The question becomes, is she doing feminism wrong?

[BertrandRussell]

"Bertrand You're moving the goal posts, are you now differentiating between bad porn and good porn, i thought it was all bad ?"

My view is that there is no "good" porn. I know there are feminists who believe that ethical porn is a possibility. I disagree.

Clear now?

[itllallbefine]

yes, that is perfectly clear, thank you and i respect your opinion.

It would appear difficult to say that your position regarding porn is a feminist one though, as that would imply that feminists who don't hold this view are either not feminists at all, or that they don't understand feminism or porn ?

[BertrandRussell]

"It would appear difficult to say that your position regarding porn is a feminist one though, as that would imply that feminists who don't hold this view are either not feminists at all, or that they don't understand feminism or porn ?"

You appear to be labouring under the misapprehension that all feminists agree on everything.

Incidentally, I don't think I have mentioned feminism on this thread.

[BertrandRussell]

Yes, I have. Once. In an ironic response to you telling me I write a lot of shite.

I am sure many people who do not identify as feminist see the problematic nature of porn.

[itllallbefine]

I don't think feminists agree about everything, it's very clear that they actually agree about fairly little.

If you are saying that your objection to porn, articulated on a feminist forum, has nothing to do with your feminism, then that's fine. If you are saying that in your opinion a feminist cannot participate in the production of porn, then which one of you gets to use the title "Feminist", and what is one to deduce from that title any more ?