Single sex birthday parties

[15thaugust]

My daughter who is only 5 came home a bit upset as she hasn't been invited to one of her classmates parties 'because he's having a football party and has only invited boys' she likes him, likes football and also said to me 'I invited him to my party' so feels aggrieved. Another girl in her class is having only the girls for a craft party. I am furious with the lazy-brained parents who can't see anything wrong with this! I haven't said anything yet to either child's parents, but it's only a matter of time and opportunity!

I think it's because it's a hiring Lewji. We've had to pay separately for the lifeguards too. We've got the pool/slides/changing rooms and a party room to ourselves for 2 hours.

When I was 11, and starting to develop, one of the boys in my class pinned me against wall in the playground and grabbed by breast and twisted as hard as he could, it was agony. Most of the boys in the class stood and watched and laughed, and continued to refer to it and laugh for some weeks afterwards. Not a single one of them appeared to see anything wrong with it. I was bruised and in pain for days. But most of all I was humiliated. When 11 year old girls are on the receiving end of behaviour like that, and it is frighteningly common, I don't think it is sexist at all that they feel more comfortable with other girls. It is self preservation.

Similarly I don't think it is sexist that young boys with breaking voices and the beginnings of body hair would feel more comfortable with other young boys.

They have all the time in the world to cultivate friendships again once the most stressful period of puberty has passed. If they want to. If they don't want to, no big deal.

When exactly are girls and boys meant to fight this 'natural' tendency? At what age should men and women welcome the other sex in their professional teams, for instance, when they are more comfortable with persons of the same sex?

I also have an 11 years old treaclesoda who is developing much faster than her peers and finds the chit chat about boys who don't reach her elbow unbearable. She wanted to play football with the boys at school. She was either not allowed or the ball was not passed to her. My son, who is 9, explained to her that boys prefer to play with boys, but if she became real good, she would be probably welcome, because wining was important. Does it sound familiar? You need to be good to be part of the boys' club (and I guess vice versa). She actually joined a club, trained with her father and she is decent enough to be an acceptable player now.

As a migrant, I accept this society and try to adapt to it the best I can. My children were born and raised here. I will not do them any favour imposing my nostalgic view of a society where sex segregation is not so widely accepted, as reflected clearly in single sex education percentages.

I don't have a way of 'fighting' this, but I believe is a suitable topic of conversation in a 'feminist Chat'. It is astonishing to see how many accept the 'nature' argument as valid. Even if it was all about nature (and I don't know a single aspect of social science where the debate nature/nurture has been concluded with clear results) it would be worth debating whether it should be accepted or not.

Using Freudian theories in a feminist forum as an authority puzzles me. Someone with the command of English mathanxiety displays, using personal attacks and drama, reproduces the worst features of the Old Boys Networking many of us try to counter. She could perfectly engage with the argument -no matter how stupid it is on her eyes- rather than humiliation. I read this forum to learn, not to be patronized, nor to see how others are patronized. I get enough of this elsewhere. There ought to be some degree of mutual respect when engaging with other women regarding a totally appropriate issue.

Except perhaps in the US where football has been for many years a "girls" sport, or the small number of countries with strong women's teams, I suspect in most other countries girls are not particularly welcome among boys playing it.

Granted, most teams my DS play against and in his team there are often one or two girls. Maybe one on average. But the parents of the girl playing in DS's team are not particularly happy with her doing a boy's sport.
We are not in the UK.

I've just asked DS (11 yo) and he said that they'd say it was ok if a girl wanted to play with them, but none has asked. Ever, apparently.

But if someone asked Lweji, would you be happy if the answer was: 'No, we prefer to play with boys'. I was not too impressed to be honest. I did not intervene although talking to the school crossed my mind. I did not want my daughter to be imposed on the boys.

Can we also conclude that girls are naturally not inclined towards football? You give yourself the example of the US, so it does not seem so natural.

Anyway, I am still unclear when to stop this. The episode of groping reported above, could also happen when you are 20/25/30. I don't feel more comfortable naked around the opposite sex as I age. All the contrary. Shall we have only male/female transports/workplaces/etc?

As I said, I believe it is not a ridiculous debate at all and understand the frustration of the OP perfectly well.

I'm not saying at all that it's natural for either gender to play football.

In our countries, football is more associated with men and less with women.
I was saying it just ends up being something that both boys and girls perceive and join in accordingly. And that sometimes it may not be necessarily that the boys exclude the girls, more something that may happen both ways.

Note that I am not in favour of single sex parties. Just saying that they happen, and it's not necessarily by parental choice.

I suppose what I was trying to say is that I feel like it is the opposite of feminism to insist that girls who are 'at that awkward age' be forced to spend time together no matter how uncomfortable it might make them. If I had been groped like that aged 20 or 30 I would have spoken up and I would have reported it to my employer and expected that the groper be dealt with.

As an 11 year old I had no one to turn to. I couldn't tell my parents and I wouldn't have dreamt of telling a teacher.

But who has said they should be forced? Of course it is not parental choice (at least not always) Most of us just 'accept' it. Some of us (at least me) don't feel particularly comfortable with it and don't see it as a natural choice only. It is influenced by a wider context. Others here seem to believe it is totally natural. So I ask: when does it stop? My tendency to seek female company has increased over the years.

I don't want anybody to dictate I should have friends from both sex now that I am well passed my 40s . Is it good that girls and boys adopt this as the norm? I don't think so, and unproblematic rationalisations of this as 'natural' because sex is a biological feature reinforces gender division too.

I really don't know what is natural, but we do have something called gender and I suspect there is a biological/behavioural reason for it.
Perhaps our brains need to assign gender at some point in our lives.
Perhaps we go through a rejection phase of the other sex (and things associated with the other sex) as we assert our independence from our parents by rejecting them and what they do during the teenage years. And then we go back.

Which is different from asserting one sex as superior to the other, btw.

The boys in DDs class do not want to play netball, nor do they want to choreagraph dances or write songs for performances.

What all of them? You have checked with every single one of them? Because if you haven't then you are simply stereotyping in an obviously sexist manner.

You are certainly correct that there is no need whatsoever to seek out sexism or invent it - it is all right there in black and white.

cam I think your points are good ones. Why do we impose a higher standard or expectation of challenging sexism on adult environments than on children's environments?

If someone told me as a woman working in a male dominated profession that there were different expectations on me regarding what I wore than on my male colleagues I would haul them up on sexism allegations immediately.

But an impressionable 4 yo is expected to go to a school 5 days a week and be asked to wear different clothes if they are male or female, and often have different rules and regs about hair length and piercings etc.according to their sex. Even at that young age they are often required to get changed separately and in many cases will go out to play or lunch or do sport by sex grouping also - again apparently for lazy number splitting reasons.

Schools do a huge amount to unnecessarily accentuate and invent difference by sex where none need actually exist.

It is not at all surprising that after a few years of this sexist treatment, children are mostly segregated out in female and male groupings.

RomiiRoo:
The point math makes if I understand correctly, is that you can impose external markers of gender but that does not change born sex. A boy is still a boy if he behaves in a way society deems 'female'. My son wants to wear nail varnish, he is still my son.
Yes, that is exactly what I intended to convey.

Self segregation by sex between age 5/6 and 12/13 is not sexism, IceBeing. Sexism arises from the concept of gender, which is always a tool for establishing hierarchy. Sexism is the display of power by one sex over the other. Acknowledgement of differences arising from sex does not necessarily have to be accompanied by a hierarchical arrangement.

Self segregation based on sex is a natural and normal stage of development when sexual development is on hold and other elements of personality are formed. It is a vital stage of development.

For this reason, we educate ourselves about development before posting left, right and centre about alleged sexism in childhood self segregation, especially if we have children ourselves and try to engineer social lives for them that we may consider politically correct but that are actually contrary to normal and natural development.

icebeing

Not all schools, certainly not my children's and as i stated before

Ds1 mainly female friends

Dd mainly female friends

Ds2 mainly male friends

In school they mix much more with the opposite sex its outside of school that their close friends seem to be one or the other

Sadly ds1 would like more male friends but has no idea how to make them

Again all the above is my children only, i am well aware that some schools have different uniform rules

What all of them? You have checked with every single one of them? Because if you haven't then you are simply stereotyping in an obviously sexist manner

Gosh you really don't like your POV being challenged do you? You know, that's not really anything to hold pride in. There was a Relationships thread going on yesterday about a man who simply Would.Not.Be.Wrong. Consensus was overwhelmingly LTB

But no, I haven't asked each and everyone one of them - because I'm not a 10 year old in the playground, I don't care if they play netball or not when I'm at work . However, considering that the whole class of Year 6 boys REFUSED to do a term of Yoga because it was "too girly" leading to parents being called in and so on, I think I have a pretty good idea of how they feel.

But please, feel free to continue to see sexism where is doesn't exist.

ex it is the definition of sexism to take something that is on average true for boys and assume it applies to ALL boys.

Even if a majority of the boys in the class didn't want to do yoga it would not excuse you saying all boys in the class have no interest in yoga.

So you saying The boys in DDs class do not want to play netball, nor do they want to choreagraph dances or write songs for performances. is transparently sexist because you are assuming something that may well be true for some or even the majority of boys is true for all the boys.

Do you really not understand that?

Imagine if someone poster "the girls in the class have no interest in football, science or maths" - I am pretty sure someone would call this as sexist! You have done exactly the same thing.

As I said there is no need to go looking for sexism that doesn't exist when people will happily churn it out and then come over all puzzled confused and sometimes aggresive when you point it out.

math Self segregation based on sex is a natural and normal stage of development when sexual development is on hold and other elements of personality are formed. It is a vital stage of development.

We still have nothing but your barefaced statement of this being true. It doesn't seem likely given the same phenomenon is mysteriously not seen in other cultures...and of course other cultures do not have the same problems with recruitment of women in STEM that we do.

You are sounding a little like the Americans wringing their hands about the impossibility of stopping regular mass shootings when they are one of very few countries that actually experience them.

Even if it is true (and please do provide evidence that it is) then as you say it is our job to minimise and reduce this. How exactly does holding single sex birthday parties, having different uniforms for boys and girls, having sporting activity artificially segregated etc. achieve that?

Even if a majority of the boys in the class didn't want to do yoga it would not excuse you saying all boys in the class have no interest in yoga

The boys wrote a petition that they ALL signed and staged a 'sit in' rather than go to the lesson. Hence parents being called. So yeah, pretty sure none of them wanted to do yoga

(Although I suppose it is possible some did, but were 'bullied' out of it by their mates. Nothing like that came up in the investigation though.)

As for netball, it's played on the back playground and anyone from Years 3 upwards can join in. They play 'high fives' with runners. No boy has ever joined in so far. A couple have barged into the girls and tried to force them into playing basketball instead (whilst ignoring the basketball hoop on the side playground), but thankfully the lunchtime supervisors are on the ball.

If I was talking about a hypothetical situation, or a situation I had no personal knowledge of (oh look, like you are ), then I wouldn't say "all boys" or "all girls". Because I wouldn't know that would I, and that would make me foolish.

You really are a card

There is quite a lot written on this. And, obviously, there is no clear conclusion about the origins of the children tendency to segregate, but lots of evidence about the negative impact on gender roles and children's development. For instance, easy enough to read and with more bibliography Here and www.child-encyclopedia.com/gender-early-socialization/according-experts/peer-socialization-gender-young-boys-and-girls

There is nothing critical of gender roles in that whole article.

Ah so 'the boys in DD's class...' doesn't mean 'all the boys in DD's class...'?

Is this some new usage of the English language then? Because I think 'the boys in the class' does imply 'all the boys in the class'. You know like 'the boys in the class dressed up as super heros' or something. It is especially clear when the offending sentence is used as a justification for inviting NO boys to a party, and having NO boys in the class as friends.

You can pretend you didn't make a sexist statement but you did. Several of them. I guess if sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending you didn't makes you happy then go to it. I imagine everyone else can see quite clearly that you did though.

It is sad though that you find making sexist statements and bringing up a sexist child to be such a huge joke.

I am once again exceptionally grateful my daughter doesn't go to school and hence won't be learning by example, from children like your DD, that single sex friendship groups are fine and that there is nothing wrong with excluding people from activities based on nothing but their sex.

Eh? She did say all the boys. She said all the boys signed a petition and staged a sit in.

I don't think she was being sexist, so your imaginings don't accord with reality.

Unless of course when you said everyone you were actually making a generalisation, just as the poster you are criticising was making a generalisation?

And most people are able to understand that a generalisation is being made.

What on earth are you talking about IceBeing?

I said all the boys.

I said "the whole class of Year 6 boys"
I said "the boys wrote a petition that they ALL signed"
I said "none of them wanted to do yoga"
I said "DD doesn't play with the boys in her class, not at all"
I said "The whole class of Year 6 boys refused to do a term of yoga because it was 'too girly"

But you seem to be randomly posting words, none of which are in context or make any sense at all. Are you quite alright?

I know dallas

Its because you said

"The boys in dds class"

Instead of

"All the boys in dds class"

Did i get it right icebeing did i? Did i? Did i?