Opinions on sex - bear with me

[Thurlow]

A couple of threads on MN over the past few weeks have got me thinking seriously about some (or maybe just some MNs) opinions relating to sex. This isn't meant to be a TAAT or an attack on their opinions. But something about some of the opinions aired, or perhaps more of a general belief, has got me quite confused.

One was the airing, by several posters/people, of the opinion that any woman who says she enjoys partaking in a particular sex act is merely a "cool girl". In essence, they can't actually really enjoy it - they only think they do because porn and/or men have convinced them that they do. It struck me as... some women believing that other women cannot, in some way, be trusted to explore their own sexuality. This is hardly a completely weird sex act we're talking about. But there seem to be women who believe any woman who enjoys certain sexual acts - anal, facials etc - cannot possibly be doing it because they genuinely enjoy it, for whatever reason (physical, emotional i.e. submission etc).

Another was a very heated debate - that I was tempted to post this on, but thought a new thread on this board might be better - as regards situations where women don't feel like having sex with their partner. Now I'm not in any way advocating that anyone should ever have to engage in any form of sexual activity if they don't want to. No way. No one ever should.

But what struck me was that for almost all people in relationships, sex is one of the main things that differentiates your romantic relationship from a very close platonic relationship. For most people in a monogamous relationship, sex is the one thing you do only with your partner - whereas many people may also be as emotionally close to a friend or family member. Sex is also seen by many people as the real Big One when it comes to infidelity. Your partner having sex with someone else is generally unforgivable. It's one of the worst things anyone can do to anyone else. Equally, everyone hopes that their partner finds them attractive and wishes to have sex with them. Someone being told that they are no longer attractive to their partner is an equally terrible thing within a relationship.

Yet on this thread about not having sex when you feel like, there was a very strong feeling from many posters that a husband (in this scenario) who asks his wife for sex, who attempts to initiate sex, is being unreasonably demanding. Completely unreasonably demanding. A sex pest, to some posters. That it is so out of order for a husband to fancy the idea of having sex with his wife. There was discussion of "pawing" in relation to a man making moves on a woman. (I will stress I completely agree with the general sentiment that if you're knackered after being with kids all day, you should completely be able to say "nope, too tired", and also that any respectful partner will just accept that). He would be totally out of order for making any kind of move towards physical intimacy. Hugging, touching, attempting to kiss, things that are surely what most people do to show affection and perhaps start to initiate sex, were just "pawing" and were demanding.

I know I'm waffling but I'm also trying to work out for myself what many of these opinions made me feel.

So - if we hope the person that we have chosen to build our life together with finds us sexually attractive, and wants to be intimate with us in a physical way, because physical and sexual intimacy is one of the main things that differentiates a partnership from a friendship... Why do many women see it as wrong that a man might hope to have sex with his wife? (Leaving aside for a brief moment men who don't take no for an answer). Why is it so wrong that a man might touch a woman, hug or kiss in an attempt to see whether their partner might like to have sex?

And why do some women seem to believe (again, just judging by comments) that any man who would like to have sex is, essentially a sex pest? As if women don't feel like that too? Which tied in, in my mind, with that whole "cool girl" concept in relation to women liking anal sex, for example.

I'm not sure I've explained this properly but I've come away from MN over the past few weeks feeling that a lot of women don't seem to agree with the simple idea that both men and women have libidos and sexual tastes: men just want to "have sex", rather than be intimate with their partner; and women just put up with it when they feel they ought too, and should have a liking for anything other than "making love".

Does that make sense to anyone? Has anyone else felt like this?

There was a thread recently about a woman who'd been on 8 dates with a man who hadn't kissed her or held hands yet. The consensus was 'dump the bastard'. I think there'd been a bit more sympathy if the person wanting to take it slowly was the woman.

I don't expect a genderless response, but I would like to see a lot less slut and prude shaming.
And I would love to see more couples have sex lives that are pleasurable to both of them.

These are women of all ages and backgrounds, not self identifying feminists. I think you need to lower your expectations.

I remember my last boyfriend telling me about one first date he had with a woman ... whe she said she was keen on talking but never did any of that other stuff any more he knew they would not quite be compatible.....

As long as people do make it clear where they stand then it's all fine but most most people who are dating tend to be up for sex and expect it.

"PosieReturningParker Mon 08-Feb-16 17:33:16

My mother is newly single after a forty year marriage, many many people on dating sites are looking for companions, there's no presumption of sexual desire or ability. These are conversations people have to have to draw boundaries."

Yikes Deo, that reminds me of an Indy article from this morning. All the comments were from men saying that if you go on dates with men from dating sites, you must expect that he will want sex. And take it if it's not offered. I know that's not what you're saying, but it resonated for whatever reason.

The comments have since been removed, presumably because not even the Indy can deal with wall to wall rape apologism.

Indy Article

Most men always want sex but that doesn't mean that most expect it on a first date or demand it. It's hardly rocket science to say it. Most women on dating sites seek a sexual relationship too. I don't think it's that unusual.

It is certainly not my experience that all men on dating sites expect sex on a first date. Obviously some sites that might be the case but not most.

Like most things good communication is normally the answer - don't con a potential lover to attend a first date if you never intend the relationship to get sexual in the future as the implication (unless it's save yourself for marriage.com or asexuals anonymous.com) is if you want a relationship you will be wanting sex to form part of that.

These are women of all ages and backgrounds, not self identifying feminists. I think you need to lower your expectations.

What does this mean Posie?

"don't con a potential lover to attend a first date if you never intend the relationship to get sexual in the future"

Hmm. Wouldn't such a discussion take place on the first date rather than before it. The first date is just for people to get to know each other isn't it? You're not making a promise to become someone's lover with one date.

These are women of all ages and backgrounds, not self identifying feminists. I think you need to lower your expectations.
So it's ok for women who aren't self identifying feminists to slut and prude shame and it's pointless trying to challenge that?

Gwen I would want that information before I went on the date. If it was through a dating site, I would expect that to be a key piece of information shared on the initial correspondence.
It would be as fundamental as knowing if someone was only into dogging or bdsm or knowing someone's age and gender.

don't con a potential lover to attend a first date if you never intend the relationship to get sexual in the future as the implication (unless it's save yourself for marriage.com or asexuals anonymous.com) is if you want a relationship you will be wanting sex to form part of that.

Did you actually read the article? I only ask because, given the subject matter of it, what you have put there sounds like rape apology.

I'm not single and barring some catastrophic event, not ever likely to be. Unsurprisingly I have never been on a dating site.

If I were to be in that situation I doubt very much whether I would put my sexual desires on my profile or for that matter bring the subject up on the first or even second date.

However, if I purely wanted companionship I think I would try and make that evident.
Ergo, I suppose by a process of elimination the face I hadn't indicated a purely platonic relationship suggests I would expect it to become sexual at some some stage

Its a minefield. I think would just get a couple of cats instead.

I would never engage in rape apology. Also people date in different ways. I suspect most of us have conversations with someone and emails before we meet them so tend to find out a bit about them including if they are after a sexual relationship. Others will have one text and then meet (not wise) and of course I am not saying that if you do that you are giving some kind of consent to sex. of course not. However on the broader topic of do people rightly expect sex in their close personal relationship(s) the answer is obviously yes. However just because you have an expectation of it doesn't mean you can force it on anyone. No way.

LogicalThinking, I don't think it's fair to expect someone to tell you something so personal before even a first date. You would really be annoyed at going for ONE drink that doesn't lead to sex at some point?

Itll you said: 'What's being repeatedly pointed out is that if you do not want sex then the cost of that may well be the end of the relationship. So in that context she may choose to have sex.'

Why would she choose to have sex she doesn't want? Would you advise a daughter to have sex in order to prevent a relationship ending?

I think it is easy to see things as that black and white when life is all sorts of shades of grey.

However saying that on an Internet forum tends to be misinterpreted as a woman should put up with being abused.

Every decision made good or bad has an impact on the people around you. The people around you will have a reaction good, bad or otherwise. In a world where divorce and deal breakers are acceptable that reaction may be to walk away. That decision in turn may impact the people around you. That's real life.

Put that into a context where divorce will impact on your children, maybe causing long term financial hardship maybe meaning that your children have to deal solo with the behaviour you are walking away from, it can be far harder to work out what your deal breakers should and shouldn't be especially with regards to sex.

Life isn't black and white. It's isn't always leave the bastard but it isn't always stay, put up and shut up either.

What I'm getting from your post Toffee is that it's understandable and even admirable for a woman to have sex she doesn't want in order to prevent divorce? Is that right?

People put out the rubbish or endure their spouse foisting another child on them or don't complain when their spouse is awful to them all the time to prevent a divorce. It is up to each spouse to decide if they will have sex they might not be in the mood for if that keeps the other partner happy. That is totally different from rape.

I never mentioned the word rape. Putting out the rubbish is hardly an onerous task, but having and unwanted child or putting up with a partner being awful is not something I'd advise a friend to do to prevent divorce. Would you?

"It is up to each spouse to decide if they will have sex they might not be in the mood for if that keeps the other partner happy. That is totally different from rape."
If you are willing to have sex with someone who you know doesn't really want it, but is only doing it to shut you up/try to keep you happy/stop you leaving them and the kids destitute, then even if you think this is totally different from rape, it actually makes you very similar to a rapist, in that you are actually willing (if not eager) to have sex with someone that you know doesn't really want it.

Let's cut the crap, that is rape! May be very difficult to prosecute or convict, but morally it is rape, making anyone who does it a rapist.

Sometimes All of the time I'm really, really glad I'm a dyke and that I don't have to put up with this seemingly endless male entitlement to female bodies.............

It's all context isn't it. I feel like this is a predominantly female site so women feel freer to post about some things than they would elsewhere, or talk about in person.

I feel like this context for impatience for men suggesting (or over-suggesting) sex is probably a marriage which is, however marginally, arranged more for the man's convenience than the woman's, and in the man's head (subconsciously) this is exactly what relationships with women are for - domestic and sexual convenience. this is not really discussed in society at large - marriages are statistically better for men than women. Now that women are generally expected to WOH as well, without losing much if any domestic respsonbility, most women are exhausted and burnt out and they KNOW their husband has a better deal and they KNOW he doesn't see it that way at all and just accepts it and they KNOW society at large doesn't know or care and so they come on here to have a moan and get some fellowship in refusing the one damn thing they're allowed to say no to (thank goodness) - sex. It's something like: ok I will get up half an hour earlier than you, ok I will be woken up whenever the baby needs something, ok I will be disturbed by your snoring as you sleep through it, I will do all the school admin, I will arrange all the play dates, I will do all the healthy cooking and accept that on your one night to get dinner on the table you will sling pizzas on the table (which means that I NEVER can), I will listen to your mum rabbit on because she only talks to women, I will clean the bathroom 5 times the number of times you do it, and when you do it I will still end up putting the bucket away which you left there - BUT! - I do not have to LIKE it, and this is the ONE thing I can do to put my foot down,

And this is basically the only place where women can be honest and so they do, and they get empathy from other women who feel the same

Amen Please.

I used to love sex but I don't want it any more and I never have it. I dream about it and I sometimes think I should force myself to have it functionally, and try to enjoy it. but I can't because I am not emotionally in that place. I have never had a one night stand. I have never had sex without feeling something. and I don't feel like it. I don't feel like my partner "sees" me. I don't feel like I exist to him as an actual human. He resents me because I work long hours. I resent him because I work long hours but mainly because he's a lazy self centred idiot who has no idea how I live and what I do to keep this family going. If I try to tell him he goes mental with rage. I am closed to him. I can't communicate with him (and I have tried) so we just live in the same house. He means nothing to me because he has decided to massively undersestimate and disrespect me. He is able to do this because he has been fed the beliefs all his life that a. men are better than women and b. men deserve to be allocated a woman to make their lives easier. I do not make his life easy enough, in his opinion (and what mine is like is of no interest to him). So we will probably never have sex again. I don't care.

Please - sounds like it's time to leave.

And yes, any person who has sex with someone when they know that person doesn't really want it is the lowest of the low.