Another trans related one, I'm afraid

[Monison]

Hello - I am an occasional poster, long time lurker on FWR. I love this board and have found the wisdom and eloquence of a number of posters quite inspirational. So I am wondering if you can help me articulate my objections to the following:

DD (yr5) had an assembly yesterday led by an organisation working with LGBT young people. The content was essentially encouraging tolerance and inclusivity (great) and making the simple point that some people are gay/bi and THAT IS FINE (again, great). However the speaker then talked about how some people are trans/gender fluid/non binary etc and that it is perfectly ok for boys to become girls and girls to become boys. DD cheerfully told me that if anyone wants to become the other sex that is perfectly normal, and should be supported. When I told her I thought it might be easier if we extended our ideas of what being a boy and girl means so that 'being a boy' can include stereotypically 'feminine' things and vice versa without changing bodies or biology she looked aghast.

There are so many issues I want to raise with the school but I am concerned they - like DD - will immediately assume that I am anti-trans individuals (which I am not) rather than questioning the wider trans narrative. I am really concerned that by including the issue of trans within the LGB discourse, it is too easy to uncritically assume that the same notions of acceptance apply rather than looking more deeply into issues of socialisation and damaging gender stereotypes.

I am also concerned that the school is allowing organisations to express as fact (and without nuance or debate) the current trans orthodoxy to children - who are clearly not equipped to think critically around these issues themselves and will accept the clunky logic of well meaning but, in my view, damaging ideology.

Another concern is that DDs school currently has a child in yr 3 who 'identifies as a girl' and the advice from the local authority has been similarly unthinking (imo). The school have been told not to out 'her' and treat her as a girl to all intents and purposes. Clearly this will present more issues as puberty approaches, and when the children start going on residential trips (no policy on whether 'she' will share a dorm with the girls, or if the girls parents will be informed). But most of all they have not questioned AT ALL this child's right to self determine, despite the fact that 'she' does not have legal consent for anything else until she is 16. I can't help but find the school's approach collusive, bordering on abusive. It is likely, after all that this child will not transition in adult life and may well have questions about why the significant adults in 'her' life allowed a child to make such an enormous decision without any context or understanding.

So, really what I am asking is how do we begin to talk to schools and other organisations about gender critical approaches to trans issues without being immediately dismissed as transphobes?

"There's no vitriol here" ... really?

The only criticism of the trans narrative has come in the traditionally right wing press. The guardian, the BBC, channel 4 et al are happily selling women down the river. We have discussed the right wing / far left thing at length on the cologne threads.

Slow, I couldn't disagree more. Free s peach is becoming more difficult because we can't challenge anyone in case their feelings are hurt. And I'm a feminist because I believe women deserve equality not to be popular!

Vitriol?! Vitriol?! You don't know the meaning of the word!

The pro-trans anti-feminist lobby are the most unhinged vitriolic group of people I've ever had anything to do with.

I think it will be the opposite
I think we will look back in horror at this phase of pigeon holing children and treating dysphoria with dangerous hormones and surgery. There will be a time when we are truly post gender and all this will make no sense

I have occasionally found it uncomfortable in RL with my dd. There are parents who cannot get their heads round her 'boyness'. People comment all the time about her 'being like a boy'. It annoys the fuck out of me and upsets dd. She's a girl, she knows she's a girl, she's proud to be a girl. She's being much more unconventional and brave than a girl who actually thinks she must BE a boy.

On the subject of trans children... this got me thinking.

On the fringes of my social circle are 4 'trans children' - all female but identifying as male or in one case non binary. 2 mid teens, 2 older primary age.

All 4 are the children of single mothers.

3 of the 4 have little or no contact with the father (in fact 2 of them have never met their father).

3 of the 4 mothers have been in abusive relationships with men at some point during the child's life.

3 of the 4 mothers have mental health problems - 2 have been hospitalised for this reason since the child was born.

2 of the mothers have ASD related conditions.

1 of the mothers is the most vocal person I have ever met on the subject of trans rights (according to her, 'you are either a human being or a TERF' ) and has been since long before her child was identifying as trans.

I don't know where I'm going with this and I'm not in any way trying to suggest that the mothers are 'at fault' - please nobody take it as such. But I find that quite interesting and I wonder if any research is being done into the factors that contribute towards children being more likely to identify as trans?

Okay, trying to suppress a knee jerk response to your post (along the lines of don't single mothers get enough shit dumped on them already, and isn't this a more general instance of "blame every social problem on bad mothering", whether single or not. ..) Full disclosure - I am a single mother with no father on the scene.

I wonder if what you're seeing is another instance of polarised gender roles in the parents' mindset leading to them categorising gender non conforming children as trans? We've talked a bit about the sort of stereotypically hyper masculine father who finds it easier to say "my kid is trans, ww knew right from when she was a toddler and wanted to play with her sister' s dolls" than "my son likes playing with dolls". I wonder whether this could be the same thing at work - that experiencing an abusive marriage could leave you (understandably) with very polarised views on gender - women as gentle and nurturing, men as hyper masculine and prone to violence - which has the same end result, namely that at the first sign of gender non conformity the parent reachhes for the "my child is trans" explanation.

Except of course for the "human beings versus TERFs" woman - she's clearly just a twat.

My 4 year old daughter has (in the last year) been noticing the physical differences between boys and girls, this is probably in response to having a baby brother (although her twin sister doesn't seem as bothered) and told me in the bath that she had a "baby willy".

I explained to her that it wasn't a penis (I'm trying to get correct terminology in there!) it was a clitoris and we had a discussion about the differences between boys and girls. It turns out that she was jealous that her brother had something that she didn't have, but was happy once she had something of her own.

Whilst I was having this discussion I was reminded of the "trans view" that a penis can be considered a large clitoris and on that basis my daughter did in fact have a baby penis. Since she refuses to accept that she has any gender whatsoever - "I'm not a boy or a girl - I'm me!" - I wondered what advice I would be given in dealing with my daughter by these "trans-activists". Would they have advocated my discussing and reassuring my daughter about her own body, or should I have supported her delusion that she has a penis?

My concern with the whole issue is that you cannot change your biological sex and anyone who believes that they can will never be happy no matter what they are "allowed" to do. Transition should be considered the final option in treating someone whose dysphoria (sp) is overtaking their life, not the standard treatment for anyone who doesn't conform to gender norms.

And in the rush to define gender non conforming people as trans (incl children) are the pro trans lobby looking at the outcomes for trans people? Does it actually improve lives? Because I suspect that those people suffering gender dysphoria (like most other psychological problems) have high comorbidity rates with other MH issues and these won't disappear because of a change in pronoun, or because no one is allowed to challenge their new identity. So actually are people suffering gender dysphoria being sold a lie? Or are they also being pushed under the bus for the sake of reinforcing rigid stereotypes. I agree with obsidian, I am convinced that history will expose the current orthodoxy for the Orwellian nightmare it is. This debate is emphatically not about hating individual trans people, slow. I have never read a single comment on these threads that suggests that trans people should not be treated respectfully or with dignity. The debate is about a damaging ideology that harms women, rigidly categorises gender non conformers and maintains the damaging stereotypes feminists have being trying for decades to dismantle.

Fly I'm not sure the single parent thing is relevant unless it is causing significant problems in the children's lives.

Who knows what makes the children feel like it? I'm assuming it IS the children saying it, not their mothers? After reading the LGBT children thread about the 3 yo I really worry for the future of some children. Our job as a parent is to protect them from this media nonsense, not go along with it.

Maybe they're depressed and feel alone in life due to their home life and have latched onto the trans idea because it's everywhere at the moment?

Maybe they've looked at their mothers lives, decided it looks shit and would prefer the alternative which to them is being a man rather than a woman?

Maybe in reality they're gay but are either scared of the idea or worried that their mothers won't accept them as gay (I struggle with this one TBH - who in their right mind would rather their child went through the horrors of transition than come out as gay)?

Maybe they prefer to do things that society considers male and they've bought into the idea that this means they must really be boys?

I think research shows that girls with autism are more likely to identify as trans but again perhaps this is because they feel like outsiders and media etc. has convinced them that being trans is the reason for such feelings.

I remember reading an article not long ago that said that the majority of people seeking help at transgender clinics are men. Only in the teenage age group do girls outnumber boys and the professionals working there don't understand why. To a degree I can see why a teenage girl would look at the world and think 'I do better at school than most boys, I work harder than most boys yet when I'm an adult I'll still be treated as inferior to most boys' and think that being a man would be easier than being a woman. Perhaps to a teenage girl it seems easier to change yourself rather than try to change the world (and get rape/murder threats in the process).

Monison I don't think the trans lobby people give a shit about the outcomes for trans people unless it affects the perception of their cause. In fact they seem perfectly willing to exploit the ones for whom transition has not been the solution (who commit suicide) by blaming the suicide on society rather than on the person's complicated mental state.

For trans activists I think it's about safety in numbers - the more trans people there are the more they can say 'see, it's just a normal variation of the human condition' and they can argue that the more people are affected, the more laws can be changed to accommodate them. People who detransition are treated appallingly by the trans community.

Aaarrgghh I should have known the single mother point would get people's backs up but I honestly am not trying to bash single parents, I was one myself for many years and my oldest child sees little to nothing of his father.

I was just musing on the cases that I am personally aware of and the common factors that they seem to have.

Obviously I do not IN ANY WAY think that single parents are doing something wrong or responsible for Bad Mothering that is influencing their children. That's absolutely not what I meant. I still maintain that its interesting though.

Just look up miranda yardley to see how activists react to dissent in the ranks.

FlyByNightSky

Aaarrgghh I should have known the single mother point would get people's backs up

Yes. Yes you should

I'm a SP. I hope to god my kids aren't going to be trans. I would not be very good at that

It is interesting fly, and would probably be better received if it was stated as "children with absent fathers" rather than "children of single mothers" because that (imo) is the real problem - fathers failing to take parental responsibility seriously. A single shift in language can easily refocus the attention.

Much like the trans thing. I (like many people I think) assumed that trans was short for transsexual. The shift to transgender happened a bit under the radar but has shifted the debate from biology (sex) to personality traits (gender).

When I first saw the slogan "transwomen are women" I was pretty ambivalent because I assumed it mean that people who have had sex reassignment surgery should be treated (to all intents and purposes) as a woman.

I wonder if the trans movement would have ever got this far if it has been clear from the outset that it meant "people with penises are women".

I dont think they would have done. It's a sleight of hand.

jessicas absolutely not. Look how silent the trans community are on the fact that circa 70% of MTT never have genital surgery - they know that this would be a deal breaker for most people. And if you ever ask about it you are "reducing people to their genitals" or "obsessed with what's in people's pants". It's been brilliantly done.

JessicasRabbit - yep that might have been better received but what I was trying to make clear that these are women who are parenting completely alone. Unlike me for example - I have a child whose father is pretty much totally absent BUT I have a long term partner who is an extremely supportive presence in my life and in my child's life. If that makes sense?

Anyway I'm not even sure what I was trying to say tbh.

I just wonder what the factors that may feed into children identifying as trans/non-binary/whatever actually are. Are they the same for girls and boys for example? Are there any common factors or is it really just a "born that way" kind of thing where environment has little to no bearing (which seems to be the prevailing narrative)?

I honestly think you're in danger of trying to make the plural of anecdote to be data, Fly. There's a lot of us raising children with no men at all in our lives for one reason or another, and I certainly haven't come across any barking mad single parents. Maybe nutcases are like buses, they come along in threes (i.e. what you're looking at is an inevitable fact of the Poisson distribution - that events, when genuinely random, do allow for some clustering).

I completely agree with Obsidian about how people in the future will look back on our handling of 'gender' today.

I think that the strict segregation of toys, clothes and even activities by sex is a massive part of the reason so many young people today think they are trans. That alongside tumblr and other stuff on the internet. Just last week I was talking with a woman I know, mum to two boys. She was saying she liked the idea of a third child but was worried about the space. "If I have a girl she'd need a whole new set of toys." Because obviously she couldn't play with the same toys her brothers did! We've really had a number done on us by those who want to make more money.

I have asperger's and I think because of this I always hated certain materials and tight fitting clothes. I would only wesr loose dresses, then when I turned about seven would only wear loose trousrrs

(Sorry pressed post)

..loose trousers and tops. I never had much imagination, didn't play with dolls or anything. I read lots and loved science, animal and nature facts, maths and logic. I also did not have many friends, and did not do social stuff well. Once I got out of my dresses stage I can imagine myself starting to think I must be trans had I been born 10 years later.

I worry because my dd at the moment loves Fireman Sam and kicking balls and playing with cars. She's only 18 months but if she continues this way I don't want anyone telling her she must be a boy. I worry that she could be like me when she grows up (though so far I think she seems normal). But if she is I don't want her to think her body is wrong.

Here's an interesting article written a year ago and pseudonomysaly under a pen name. It's sums up the current trans/ terf position and the silencing. Apologies I'm posting it on the ioc thread too!
www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/02/are-you-now-or-have-you-ever-been-terf