Another trans related one, I'm afraid

[Monison]

Hello - I am an occasional poster, long time lurker on FWR. I love this board and have found the wisdom and eloquence of a number of posters quite inspirational. So I am wondering if you can help me articulate my objections to the following:

DD (yr5) had an assembly yesterday led by an organisation working with LGBT young people. The content was essentially encouraging tolerance and inclusivity (great) and making the simple point that some people are gay/bi and THAT IS FINE (again, great). However the speaker then talked about how some people are trans/gender fluid/non binary etc and that it is perfectly ok for boys to become girls and girls to become boys. DD cheerfully told me that if anyone wants to become the other sex that is perfectly normal, and should be supported. When I told her I thought it might be easier if we extended our ideas of what being a boy and girl means so that 'being a boy' can include stereotypically 'feminine' things and vice versa without changing bodies or biology she looked aghast.

There are so many issues I want to raise with the school but I am concerned they - like DD - will immediately assume that I am anti-trans individuals (which I am not) rather than questioning the wider trans narrative. I am really concerned that by including the issue of trans within the LGB discourse, it is too easy to uncritically assume that the same notions of acceptance apply rather than looking more deeply into issues of socialisation and damaging gender stereotypes.

I am also concerned that the school is allowing organisations to express as fact (and without nuance or debate) the current trans orthodoxy to children - who are clearly not equipped to think critically around these issues themselves and will accept the clunky logic of well meaning but, in my view, damaging ideology.

Another concern is that DDs school currently has a child in yr 3 who 'identifies as a girl' and the advice from the local authority has been similarly unthinking (imo). The school have been told not to out 'her' and treat her as a girl to all intents and purposes. Clearly this will present more issues as puberty approaches, and when the children start going on residential trips (no policy on whether 'she' will share a dorm with the girls, or if the girls parents will be informed). But most of all they have not questioned AT ALL this child's right to self determine, despite the fact that 'she' does not have legal consent for anything else until she is 16. I can't help but find the school's approach collusive, bordering on abusive. It is likely, after all that this child will not transition in adult life and may well have questions about why the significant adults in 'her' life allowed a child to make such an enormous decision without any context or understanding.

So, really what I am asking is how do we begin to talk to schools and other organisations about gender critical approaches to trans issues without being immediately dismissed as transphobes?

Can you get the PTA involved in something like 'let toys be toys' or #stillaboy #stillagirl ? It might help to create some debate about gender roles and identities without all this binary pink = girl even with a penis bollocks.

I too would be going batshit with the school. Since when did a psychological disorder with treatment requiring life changing medication and/or surgery become just another lifestyle choice?

Catatonic, I imagine that having seen what your partner has gone through, you more than anyone would understand that transition is an extremely serious business and should not be presented to children as 'just' one option among many others?

it is wrong of parents to automatically assume they have a transgender child rather than a gender non-conforming child. And I do think there is a massive trend at the moment to pressurise people into assuming that if their child is gender non-conforming then they must be trans.

totally agree with this. 5 year old boys playing with dolls are very, very unlikely to be genuinely trans or body dysmorphic imo, they are just gender non-conforming to the ludicrous polarised male/female blue/pink stereotypes society has relentlessly being pushing in the last 20/30 years (in the Western world anyway - I don't see legions of African children's parents queueing up to say their children are trans).

I was a standard 70's tomboy - dressed like a boy, got everyone to call me a boys name for awhile, played with stereotypical boys toys etc - I am still not very "girly" as an adult and do a technical job that attracts many more men than women - but I have never once felt that I am not or shouldn't be a woman. I enjoy pregnancy and having children immensely. I dread to think what would have happened if I'd been born more recently because I'd surely have been labelled as trans in many sections of society and even been given hormones to prevent puberty, which I'd now be very pissed off about.

Bloody hell, I hope this trans thing is done before I have kids in school.

I was the same paranoiddroid. Grew up in the 70's total 'tomboy' never wore a dress lived in boys clothes, insisted all my hair was cut short. played football, was allowed to join Cubs before that was even a thing. totally rejected everything that was 'girly' and that I wished i was a boy. Mainly because as far as I could see, boys got to do the more fun things like science and woodwork and climbing rocks etc. and that was what I wanted to do.
In this day and age I would have definitely been labelled as trans. I dread to think what would have happened. Hit puberty and happy enough being female, most of my issues surrounded equality more than wanting to be male.

I,m grateful that at least in the 70's people just accepted girls like me as 'tomboys' no one tried to change me

"most of my issues surrounded equality more than wanting to be male" - ditto

Sorry, Cait. I missed your request for more info. I think it started that the child wanted to wear dresses and this was interpreted by the parents and school as 'is actually a girl'. So the child was allowed to wear dresses in reception but very soon (and I don't know the details because I am not close to the family) started using a feminised version of his name, and adopted the female pronoun. I have no idea at whose instigation - although I would be surprised if a reception child had enough awareness of pronouns to be offended (erased!) by he!. So now he is a she: the school's view is that he is a boy for stats purposes only and is to be treated and not 'outed' as a girl for everything else. No thought about how this impacts the girls, of course and I expect 'she' will cheerfully join the girls' dorms on residential trips when they are approaching puberty. As far as I know the child's family are 'difficult' and very encouraging of the whole trans thing which makes me feel that the school's collusion is even worse! So I think the child is being horrendously let down and I can only imagine the fall out during puberty/adulthood and all because a load of adults cannot countenance a boy wearing a dress!

Unfortunately many teachers really fall in to the trap that boys behave one way and girls another, so for many the idea of "wrong body" probably doesn't register as an issue. I work in an all boys school, and the amount of teachers who have given up on the idea that boys can be organised is ridiculous. A fair few look at me like I'm insane when I point out that the boys are choosing not to be organised, and that after a week or two of issuing sanctions for students who forgot stuff they all managed to come properly equipped for lessons.

You do have to be careful in raising it though - make sure you make it crystal clear that the problem you have is with children being presented with the idea that girls can literally become boys and vice versa. School should be teaching them proper science (or at least not getting it totally wrong).

Monison, there's not a lot the school can do. They have a statutory duty to support trans students.

One of my dd's friends identifies as a girl, and has done more-or-less since reception. She took a girl name and the female pronoun in y2. school is totally supportive of her, but there is no sense at all that any other parents have any need to know anything. Basically it's not our business. My dp doesn't want dd changing with her friend and we very much feel that we are being unreasonable for having said that.

And I'm another one who would be trans if the current climate existed when I grew up. I definitely wanted to be a boy when I was in primary school - they got to do all the cool things. Fortunately, I had parents who kindly explained science to me (much like when DSis wanted to be a sheep) and pointed out that girls can do cool stuff too. And they bought me lego - proper lego, not the stupid pinkified stuff.

The thing is every child is gender non-conforming to some degree. I don't believe a single person lives up to the cultural-specific expectations of their gender entirely. Even my mil, who is thoroughly subscribed to the girl/boy brain theory and attributes every little thing a child does to their sex (and has started doing the same to her dogs), is not entirely gender conforming. I understand why it is used in this context especially, but I'm fed up of it. All of it!

Sorry that isn't helpful. Can you ask the school for a copy of what the children were taught? See if there is any obvious stereotyping that you can bring up with them? I think the idea of getting them in touch with let toys be toys is a great one.

Coco, you are definitely not BU. What did the school say?

'So I think the child is being horrendously let down and I can only imagine the fall out during puberty/adulthood and all because a load of adults cannot countenance a boy wearing a dress!'

I agree. A 5 year old boy showing an interest in dolls and dresses sounds perfectly normal to me, and it could be responded to calmly without all the panic and need for 'othering' him by announcing that he is now a girl. Changing his name and using female pronouns sounds utterly bonkers to me. I'm sure for some people this is just another attention-seeking bandwagon to jump on.

I'm sympathetic to trans people, and certainly don't condone any nasty or abusive behavior towards them, but very much agree with other posters that women should not be expected just to suck it up and move aside and shut up and do what they're told by yet another group.

"Unfortunately many teachers really fall in to the trap that boys behave one way and girls another"

I've noticed this, Jessica. My dd isn't at school yet but we know quite a few teachers in real life and they are all very much of this mind set.

'Unfortunately many teachers really fall in to the trap that boys behave one way and girls another,'

Oh my god this is so true. I work in Early Years education and hear it all the flaming time. Its bad and sad enough when parents are so closed minded, but to hear educational professionals peddling the gender stereotypes really boils my blood.

What chance does that child now have of having a normal life? How likely is it that they will be confident enough to say "I just like to wear dresses, I'm not comfortable with all this stuff, I don't want to be treated differently to the other kids". Or that he would be listened to if he did?

I'm sympathetic to trans people, and certainly don't condone any nasty or abusive behavior towards them, but very much agree with other posters that women should not be expected just to suck it up and move aside and shut up and do what they're told by yet another group.of men

I agree it's bullshit. I would be talking about it with my child, and explaining it in much the same way as I explain the religious bollocks they come home with most of the time.

Ie, some folk believe this crap, because it makes them feel better - but you don't have to. And always be nice to kids who are confused about what sex they are.

Another tomboy here too. I was really into so-called boys' stuff when I was small. Short hair, corduroy trousers, people called me sonny etc. from aged about 7 to 11. I didn't want to be a boy. I wanted to be me and my 'me' was enjoying all the stuff that was acceptable for boys, but not girls, and hating all the 'mummy's little helper' stuff and behaviour thought appropriate for girls. Therefore, by identifying as a boy I got to do the stuff I wanted without recrimination and stupid comments.

That was the 1950s. Thank God this 'trans' crap had not started then or some trendy fools might have been trying to persuade me I was a boy. Instead I grew into a straight (and married) woman with kids - who still likes "boys' stuff".

I wonder how much the relatively recent trend of pink and blue shit is promoting this really dangerous trans agenda.

Disclaimer: I am not saying there is not a small minority of people with genuine issues. I wish them well and would certainly never discriminate.

If educators concentrated on what they should be doing in schools instead of cluttering up the curriculum with the sort of crap the OP talked about maybe English teenagers would not recently have been ranked 23 out of 23 for literacy levels and 22 out of 23 for numeracy levels by the OECD.

I also wonder where the wider narrative is emanating from - is it ground up, or top down?

Perhaps there are some elements of the patriarchy who consider that men who feel 'feminine' are less of a threat to men as a whole if they are actually really women after all.

If men are allowed to be men who wear dresses or like pink, then what's to stop it spreading and changing the entire culture of masculinity?

As for the other inevitable side of the coin - women being men - meh, they aren't really, they're just poor deluded women, so they can't be much of a threat.

Grimble, I have to say I think you were lucky to be accepted into the boys' stuff thing when you were young.

I grew up in the 70s and 80s and circa 1981 decided I wanted to play football on the playing field - it looked like a lot of fun and I thought I might be good at it.

I was alright. For the day I got away with it for maybe 20 minutes. Then the dinner ladies called me away - 'you'll get hurt'. 'It's a boys' game'. 'It's dirty, you don't want all that nasty dirt on you'. And when I resisted - because I was always well behaved, but couldn't see the logic - 'You're being naughty'.

I gave up.

Yes Pipistrella: I think by the 70s and 80s, when my children were growing up, the sugar and spice image of girls had begun to set in. My girls certainly had more criticism than I did when they wanted to do normal things like playing football. Luckily they had been brought up by an awkward mum to be awkward and ignore the dinner lady admonitions!

I wonder too if my childhood (I was a war baby) was so near the end of the war, in which women had become much more accepted for doing unladylike stuff that I was still in the afterglow of women being acknowledged as capable human beings. By your childhood the backlash had started I fear

Sorry for any potential derailing.

While we're on the subject of football, I met a 2 year old girl (at work) recently who just loves football. She carries her little red ball around everywhere with her and was holding it when she arrived at the session. Her mum said that she just loved playing football with her older brother, and it was her favourite thing in the world to do. Adorable. Then in the next breath, Mum sighed and said 'I just don't understand it. She's a girl! How can she like football???' She was openly horrified by it, not just perplexed.

I gave mum a gentle but firm talking to and I really hope that some of it actually sunk in

This was a two year old. And its by no means the first time I've come across attitudes like her mum's. So by the time children are school age, their heads are full of this utter nonsense about what girls do and what boys do, and what's 'normal' for a boy and 'normal' for a girl. Its no wonder some of them are extremely confused about what they are allowed to play with and who they are allowed to be.