Another trans related one, I'm afraid

[Monison]

Hello - I am an occasional poster, long time lurker on FWR. I love this board and have found the wisdom and eloquence of a number of posters quite inspirational. So I am wondering if you can help me articulate my objections to the following:

DD (yr5) had an assembly yesterday led by an organisation working with LGBT young people. The content was essentially encouraging tolerance and inclusivity (great) and making the simple point that some people are gay/bi and THAT IS FINE (again, great). However the speaker then talked about how some people are trans/gender fluid/non binary etc and that it is perfectly ok for boys to become girls and girls to become boys. DD cheerfully told me that if anyone wants to become the other sex that is perfectly normal, and should be supported. When I told her I thought it might be easier if we extended our ideas of what being a boy and girl means so that 'being a boy' can include stereotypically 'feminine' things and vice versa without changing bodies or biology she looked aghast.

There are so many issues I want to raise with the school but I am concerned they - like DD - will immediately assume that I am anti-trans individuals (which I am not) rather than questioning the wider trans narrative. I am really concerned that by including the issue of trans within the LGB discourse, it is too easy to uncritically assume that the same notions of acceptance apply rather than looking more deeply into issues of socialisation and damaging gender stereotypes.

I am also concerned that the school is allowing organisations to express as fact (and without nuance or debate) the current trans orthodoxy to children - who are clearly not equipped to think critically around these issues themselves and will accept the clunky logic of well meaning but, in my view, damaging ideology.

Another concern is that DDs school currently has a child in yr 3 who 'identifies as a girl' and the advice from the local authority has been similarly unthinking (imo). The school have been told not to out 'her' and treat her as a girl to all intents and purposes. Clearly this will present more issues as puberty approaches, and when the children start going on residential trips (no policy on whether 'she' will share a dorm with the girls, or if the girls parents will be informed). But most of all they have not questioned AT ALL this child's right to self determine, despite the fact that 'she' does not have legal consent for anything else until she is 16. I can't help but find the school's approach collusive, bordering on abusive. It is likely, after all that this child will not transition in adult life and may well have questions about why the significant adults in 'her' life allowed a child to make such an enormous decision without any context or understanding.

So, really what I am asking is how do we begin to talk to schools and other organisations about gender critical approaches to trans issues without being immediately dismissed as transphobes?

The lesbian scene in London is very 'binary' (I hate that word), alot of butch lesbians or studs would never let a strap or dildo whatever you call it be used on them and are only interested in feminine women.

I think it comes from internalised homophobia, the idea that a woman can never really be interested in another woman so you need to look as masculine as possible in order for a woman to truly want you.

On the teachers point, please don't think all teachers and eyfs professionals subscribe to the gender split of toys. I'm a childminder and work with several teaching families and we all agree that if a toy requires certain genitals to be used then it's not for children!

I have refused to work with a family who expected me to only let their son play with cars and trains. He wasn't allowed dolls because 'no son of theirs was being a faggot' they were asked to leave.

The trans creep is everywhere. On a recent inclusion course we discussed trans issues and how they affect children. Most of us were very much 'let kids explore and shove your agenda'.

You can't turn on the TV without trans being on. Hollyoaks has a trans teacher who is being victimised, the BBC are pushing trans on the news. This feels like the only place left I can raise concerns without having bigot and TERF screamed at me.

Oh and on a chanel 4 piece on trans issues recently they said 660000 people in the uk identify as trans. So around 1% of the population. Look up the debate between Dr Julia Long and Jack Monroe on channel 4 news.

Or a let kids be kids campaign Sister

Really interesting thread OP. I've also been struck recently that there must surely be a link between the trans issue / gender trans and the very pink/blue stereotyping that had been going on over the last 10-15 years. I have a ds - lovely sensitive boy whose played more with dolls than his sister which is fine with me, but I can't help wonder if some of these children have been told otherwise.

And that school presentation sounds inappropriate for that age group.

(gender confusion)

"Let kids be kids" is a great idea!

Thinking more on the rise of the trans movement at a time when we seem as a society to be ever more rigidly enforcing gender roles...

I have a friend who's an anthropologist, who has some interesting observations on the whole "third sex" thing. Apparently (this is my version, which may be a bit garbled in the retelling) pretty much all societies have socially sanctioned sex roles, but they vary from one society to another (18th century Yorkshire - weaving was a male job; 20th century Navajo - weaving was a female job). But what also varies is the degree of rigidity. For example across most cultures, ploughing with a team of oxen will count as men's work - but suppose a widow needs to plough her fields in readiness for sowing next year's crop. Attitudes to her doing this may range from "bit eccentric, but I suppose needs must" (flexible gender roles) through to "stone the unnatural witch for doing a man's job" (rigid gender roles). She points out that third genders (Hijra in India, say, or three spirit people in Native American groups, Bacha Posh in Afghanistan, or sworn virgins in Albania) are much more prevalent in societies with rigid gender roles.

Really interesting Lurcio.

Was just chatting to dh about this Lurcio and he mentioned the anthropology angle as well, so thanks for that.

For those of you with kids who have had assemblies and whatnot at school - do the school tell parents in advance that they will be discussing these issues? It hasn't come up for us yet and I just wondered whether because it is a contentious topic the school would seek parental permission?

Schools round our way are mainly run by Christian evangelists so I'm not sure they would even mention the issue unless they had to.

I wasn't warned in advance, Caitlin. Grouping T in with LGB has meant that trans issue are being discussed much more frequently along the same sort of lines - tolerance, understanding etc. The school just don't seem to able to understand that T is not one and the same with LGB rights/inclusion. In fact, as other posters have said, often the trans narrative actively harms or minimises LGB issues and women's rights. I totally understand the Equality and Diversity training story - it is well intentioned people reinforcing an orthodoxy they don't fully understand. (I know that sounds really condescending). Which makes speaking outagainst it incredibly hard because all people hear is 'I hate/fear trans people and want them to suffer' which is to SPECTACULARLY miss the point.

I will complain about assembly though - it's ridiculous that I feel so anxious about it though. As if I am heretical or something

Yep, they're out their teaching this stuff as a given and are sure they are right about the gender thing. So I don't think there would be any reason for them to consider pre warning parents for school discussions.
Yes - let kids be kids!

monison it would be good to get Germaine Greer in to talk to the kids to counter that assembly

Joking aside, they could do with somekind of soothing and inspirational talk from someone to reassure them, the little souls can be and do whatever they want

The women's england football squad? Some male nurses? Eddie Izzard??

I'm kids furious about all this
It's an awful thing to say but I actually hope that in 5-10 years there comes a hell of a backlash. Women raped in prison by trans women with penises. Women raped in women's shelters. Children, teenagers becoming adults and suing the fuck out of their parents and doctors who allowed them to take puberty blockers and take cross sex hormones at young ages. This madness needs to stop. At least, I hope, the fashion for identifying as genderqueer, nutrois, demiboi and all the rest will die out like the fucking stupid youth subculture that it is.

Fucking furious obviously
And I don't wish rape on anyone really but somehow people need to comprehend the implications of this situation

Speaking of male nurses, I was looking on the Early Learning Centre website last night for a birthday present and was unpleasantly surprised to see that all the dressing up costumes still show up as girls or boys - and of course nurses are girls and doctors are boys. I know this stuff goes on but I thought most toy companies would have stopped by now because of the bad press. The dad of my best friend growing up, is a nurse, and it really struck me just how backwards it is. I decided not to buy from their site as it annoyed me so much.

Something I've been wondering for a while is - when did it go from being 'transsexual' to 'transgender'? I'm sure I remember a time when the term was transsexual, meaning that a person felt their personal identity did not match their sexual characteristics, and so took steps to change tgaty. This makes sense to me because, well, sex is the 'rigid' thing that people might have trouble identifying with. But now we have transgender, in which people don't identify with their 'assigned gender', and that implies that gender is a rigid thing and that you either have to be a boy who likes boy things or a girl who likes girl things. And then suddenly we're in this topsy turvy world of sexual characteristics suddenly being secondary to identity - female penises etc.

On another note raised above, I do not understand how it is legal to give children sex hormones that (if I ubdero correctly?) have serious impact on their later fertility. I've got the impression from discussions on Mumsnet that grown women have to pretty much fight to prove that they really want sterilisation, and yet we're letting children make this decision on the basis of playing with the 'wrong' toy?

Yes that's an interesting point, Hovis. Grown women can't be sterilised easily but 5 year old boys can be girls. So basically a grown woman has less agency than an small male child. And to top it off it is written so deeply into the 'caring liberal' narrative that most people don't even stop to question it (except the amazing posters on FWR!)

Hovis, I'm a grown woman who asked to be sterilised when I was 28 and was told categorically no. It does seem utterly ridiculous that young children are being pumped with hormones on the basis of their interest in particular toys or particular types of clothing.

And you make a good point about the move from 'transsexual' to 'transgender'

Obsidian, I think the same thing - there will be a flurry of trans children suing their parents/NHS/schools and some serious sexual assaults before the trans narrative will be looked at critically. And even then feminists will be ignored. It will be some white guy in government who suddenly sees a problem that the media takes seriously. A poster on another thread mentioned the Handmaid's tale a few days ago - and it feels a bit like where this is going (obvs not as extreme!) eg, making things worse for women so that things can be better for others, silencing women's voices, simply never factoring women's concerns into any analysis of social priorities. On the bright side, I have spoken to DD and she has been easily dissuaded from the trans narrative.

Monison
'there will be a flurry of trans children suing their parents/NHS/schools and some serious sexual assaults before the trans narrative will be looked at critically'
Next years Olympics could accelerate this. Although the decision by the IOC is completely wrong, it could further the cause of 'us right thinkers'.
If Nicola Adams gets beaten up by a trans man or the Iranian women's football team wins, public opinion will turn pretty swiftly.

That's a bloody good point, Hovis. I am frequently confused by the terminology on this subject but hadn't really stopped to think about 'transsexual' becoming 'transgender'.

shortcut do you even GET feminist groups visiting schools and giving assemblies? I have a feeling that the only way women's rights are covered in the curriculum is by reference to history e.g suffragettes.

I doubt it - I was at a meeting recently discussing disadvantaged groups in schools and girls were not even mentioned. Lots of time spent talking about rare minority groups, no time spent talking about girls and STEM subjects, or consent, or playground space.....

When I mentioned girls I could see a few eye-rolls. Here she goes again, banging on about feminism. Because labelling someone a feminist means you don't have to listen to them apparently. And don't we all know girls do better than boys, so maybe we should redirect our energies...

Hi, first time on this type of thread, but nodding furiously at most of the posts here. Please forgive me if I'm not using the correct terminology, and I hope I'm not offending anyone. I'm very confused as to the Trans 'thing' and haven't liked to articulate in the real world, for fear of being called anti-Trans.
I'm very uncomfortable with the increase of people wanting to 'label' and 'box' gender and/or sex in children. Like others have said, children are fluid in their likes and needs, but it seems to be that that fluidity needs to be labelled as 'something' rather than just 'how a kid is'
I have a friend, whose son, from a very early age, loved dressing as a 'girl', much preferred the company of girls, and was quite traditionally feminine. She has just 'let him be him', despite the school gate mums asking if he was gay/trans/body dysmorphic etc. He is now 15 and a gorgeously wonderful boy, who is happy, confident and comfortable in whatever sexuality he has chosen,and refuses to label himself as anything. I'm not sure that would have happened if he'd been told that he was trans.