examples of misogyny permeating our culture, demonstrated by the bloke pouring hot coffee on his head.

[UnDeuxTroisCatsSank]

I read this article about a homeless man who accepted $5 from an arrogant shit in exchange for pouring hot coffee over his head. And the arrogant shit filmed it on his phone, presumably for "fun".

The homeless man, Ronald Leggatt, explained later he was desperate for the money and so willing to take the burns from the hot coffee.

Shocking and appalling behavior from the arrogant shit.

There's a happier ending in that someone overheard the whole thing, confronted the shit and then tried to make things better for Mr. Leggatt, including paying for him to get into a shelter during Hurricane Jonas and getting him some clothes from Walmart.

But this whole sorry story got me thinking. About the parallels with prostitution. Hang on, bear with me.

I just thought that most people would be appalled by the story of Mr Leggatt and empathize with his desperation to get $5 and yet when women are desperate, penniless, just surviving in dire financial straits and ready to do something, anything even though it will cause them harm such as sell their bodies, I don't see good Samaritans rushing to buy them clothes in Walmart and checking them into hostels for the night.

I think many people feel that people working as prostitutes are (a) willing and (b) maybe even like it. Never considering what desperation can make a person do.

Mr Leggatt was desperate and acted in a way that most people would never do.
Many prostituted women are desperate and act in a way that many people would never do.

One is understood and receives empathy, the other not only accepted but vilified, judged and othered.

Just thoughts about the misogyny that permeates our culture.

(And I hope Mr Leggatt gets medical help and support, because he does sound desperate, poor bloke.)

Personally, I think we are crediting men who use the sex industry with far too much intelligence if we consider that they use their brains at all.

No I am not. I am saying you were repeating the same point over and over again.

Yup. Fuck it. The footie is on now.

Buying consent isn't some unstoppable natural event like a hurricane. And plenty of things that used to be socially and legally acceptable are not now. I hope one day that "paying to put your dick where it isn't wanted" will be as strongly judged as child labour and drink driving and as the despicable man in the OP.

Perhaps the nonsense poem route is the way to go:

Do you judge a punter-man?
Yes, I judge him, Sam I Am.
He should not, should not, in the dark,
He should not, should not, in a park.
He should not with a teenage girl,
He should not "other" half the world.
He should not, should not, in a street,
He should not see it as a treat.
He should be full of self-disgust,
And sooner leave his dick to rust.
For it is not some manly "jape" -
It's grim and awful pay-to-rape.

Do you judge a punter-man?
Yes, I judge him, Sam I Am.
He should not, should not, in the dark,
He should not, should not, in a park.
He should not with a teenage girl,
He should not "other" half the world.
He should not, should not, in a street,
He should not see it as a treat.
He should be full of self-disgust,
And sooner leave his dick to rust.
For it is not some manly "jape" -
It's grim and awful pay-to-rape.

This is a thing of beauty and should possibly be cross stitched onto samplers.

Simple but perfect.

Excellent bold fail as well....

That poem is genius!

Well played, Dr Seuss

You missed out 'should not, should not with a goat'

"paying to put your dick where it isn't wanted"

sigh - but this just says it's all mens fault again and that all prostitution is paid rape. There are many many vocal female hookers and brothel keepers that do want men to pay to have sex, and bought consent IS NOT rape FFS, no matter how many times you say it.
We have to admit that some women are part of the problem here....and they should be prosecuted as well. We don't let off drug dealers because of the demand created by the users.

Thanks, sisters!

I did have a fox and a box room in the first draft, Countess, but couldn't make it scan...

should say *off because of the demand, of course. Anyway, i can't remember if I said this before, but to me the police could put at a stop to street prostitution and brothels quite easily.

But once again, "Itllall* we're looking down the other end of the telescope - not at the choices of the women, but the behaviour of the men. How many punters do you think are "ethical consumers" who check that their custom is only given to independent prostitutes choosing to do this and who are happy with it? And how many are going to a massage parlour with a huge bouncer on the door and women who don't speak enough English to tell them whether they're happy or not?

From the point of view of my attitude to the punter who doesn't ask any questions, DrSeuss' poem is spot on.

I know it's been said before on here, but I am not "whorephobic" - I am "punterphobic".

Punterphobic is the best kind of phobic to be.

But, yet again all scrutiny is deflected away from the type of men who pay to negate women's consent and refocussed on the tiny minority of women who aren't utterly repulsed and sickened by those men's hands on their bodies.

We're not allowed to look at the men. We must always focus on how empowerfullising it all is for the prostituted women.

If that summary is directed at Itall's post it is not at all what she said, particularly the part about saying prostitution is "empowerfullising"

There is a vocal lobby, which includes women, calling for legalisation of prostitution and brothels. MSP Jean Urquhart for one. For her to even contemplate what she is doing must mean she does not consider bought consent is rape.

Considering how to deal with the mindset of people like her, whether they are female brothel keepers or just useful idiots does not exclude dealing with men's behaviour.

Palmer

I assume you aimed that at me. You saying that prostitutes are pretty much all repulsed by punters and hate them is pointless when you have actual prostitutes vocally stating that this is not the case. You say it is a "tiny minority", but they have the ear of MPs FFS. Whether they are repulsed by it or not isn't really the issue, this is my point.

Itll, you assume wrongly then.

Sorry, not all about you.

Had anyone suggested on this thread that prostitution was "empowerfullising". I don't recall that?

If not, then not sure what point you were making, other than repeating the general concensus. Who or what was "yet again deflecting all scrutiny away from the type of men who pay to negate women's consent"? I didn't see anyone doing that.

Again, turn things round and ask about the attitudes of the men rather than the women.

We don't know precisely what percentage of prostitutes freely choose to be prostitutes., for reasons connected with difficulties of getting representative samples, women embracing cognitive dissonance about their real feeling to get them through the day, issues round legality, issues round the chaotic lifestyles of some at the street prostitution end of the market. (Regarding cognitive dissonance, surveys of exited prostitutes and current prostitutes typically give different results). Maybe it's 50-50 happy independent practitioners exercising a free choice in a capitalist free market versus trafficked/drug addicted/poverty stricken ones. Maybe it's 90-10. Maybe it's 10-90.

What does come out from reading the extracts from Puntersnet on the Invisible Men Project is that most of their customers are not ethical consumers. The punters do not care whether the woman they are having using is in the x% who consent (as freely as any of us can in a capitalist economy) or the y% who are coerced in some way.

What ratio does x to y have to be in order to throw the y% under the bus for the sake of the punter's sexual gratification, sexual gratification which could be obtained through wanking or purchasing a sex doll?

The evidence from countries like Germany who have legalised brothels is that trafficking actually goes up - simple economics, supply creates demand. You normalise prostitution, more customers want it. You commodify sex, then you create the loss-leader sliced white bread as well as the luxury artesan bread end of the market. (Apologies for likening women's bodies to sliced white bread, but this is precisely what prostitution does.)

I want to find some way of helping the y%.

"You normalise prostitution, more customers want it. "

Yy to this, which is why I want it to be far more socially unacceptable, like drink driving.

I don't think anyone on here was suggesting any acceptable ratio Lurcio I wasn't. I have consistently said on here I think prostitution is bad for women and bad for society.

The point I think itsall was making is statements such as "bought consent is no consent" is preaching to the converted.

YY Lurcio.

But again, after several of these and similar threads, it has become apparent that we are never allowed to frame the discussion around the men. It always has to be about the women.

Men who pay for the right to fuck a prostitute are likely to be misogynists, surely? They are paying to have sex without any care or connection of their partner in bed... partner is completely the wrong word! It's not a level transaction, it's paying, there's an implied power dynamic when you pay for something, whatever it is.

It's no coincidence that EVERYWHERE globally where prostitution is decriminalised or legalised the trafficking goes up. The only place apparently that this hasn't happened is New Zealand, I can only think this is because of immigration laws and the fact it's a tiny isolated country and population. Or they're bullshitting about it.