examples of misogyny permeating our culture, demonstrated by the bloke pouring hot coffee on his head.

[UnDeuxTroisCatsSank]

I read this article about a homeless man who accepted $5 from an arrogant shit in exchange for pouring hot coffee over his head. And the arrogant shit filmed it on his phone, presumably for "fun".

The homeless man, Ronald Leggatt, explained later he was desperate for the money and so willing to take the burns from the hot coffee.

Shocking and appalling behavior from the arrogant shit.

There's a happier ending in that someone overheard the whole thing, confronted the shit and then tried to make things better for Mr. Leggatt, including paying for him to get into a shelter during Hurricane Jonas and getting him some clothes from Walmart.

But this whole sorry story got me thinking. About the parallels with prostitution. Hang on, bear with me.

I just thought that most people would be appalled by the story of Mr Leggatt and empathize with his desperation to get $5 and yet when women are desperate, penniless, just surviving in dire financial straits and ready to do something, anything even though it will cause them harm such as sell their bodies, I don't see good Samaritans rushing to buy them clothes in Walmart and checking them into hostels for the night.

I think many people feel that people working as prostitutes are (a) willing and (b) maybe even like it. Never considering what desperation can make a person do.

Mr Leggatt was desperate and acted in a way that most people would never do.
Many prostituted women are desperate and act in a way that many people would never do.

One is understood and receives empathy, the other not only accepted but vilified, judged and othered.

Just thoughts about the misogyny that permeates our culture.

(And I hope Mr Leggatt gets medical help and support, because he does sound desperate, poor bloke.)

Of course sadistic urges can be a driving force. Why do you think someone wanted to do this?

they can be of course, but most people arent sadistic (youd hope) but everyone has sex urges, and not everyone equates sex for money as violence.

That man had no other choice really but to be hurt for money. The structural inequality which leads to poor people having to agree to be an object for other peoples desires for money, rather than worrying about the individual acts and being disgusted by what people will both do for money when they have so little agency, and wanting to legislate against the only options they have open to them.

I'd contend that some fucker paying a man with almost nothing to pour boiling liquid on themselves so they can film and share it is that actual definition of sadistic bastard.

It might not be one I could use in my practice, but it is the epitome of sadism.

Branleuse

I don't really understand your points.

The shit who paid $5 is clearly sadistic. Not sure how that can be contested.

Mr Leggatt is desperate and has no other choices in what way does that differ from that homeless prostituted women who may experience violence from a pimp if they do not sell themselves?

I'm not "disgusted" by what prostitutes will do for money. I'm disgusted when they are exploited by people like this coffee pouring man. That is the same structural inequality. And I would argue that quite a few male customers of prostitutes are indeed sadistic by anyone's definition, and feel that as they've paid for the use of someone's body they have the right to push her boundaries to a greater or lesser extent. Whether she wants to be there or her personal background and circumstances is certainly immaterial and for some men I imagine knowing that she doesn't is part of the thrill.

i get he is sadistic, but i dont think that most people who have sex for money are doing it to hurt people, even if that is what ultimately happens. You cant really equate the sex drive with some peoples sadism. I think sex work is different because of the innate sex drive of people, and thats why its hard to make analogies, like the cup of tea thing. Noone gives a fuck if someone doesnt want to drink tea. People have a lot of drive and incentive to have sex.

poor people all over the world are forced into doing all sorts of things for money because of capitalism and inequality. without an overhaul of the system to reduce inequality - which wont happen because its global, poor people are commodities to be bought and sold, for entertainment, for all the shit noone actually wants to do. I guess the constant focus on sex work is symbolic? Because Sex is sacred etc, whereas slavery is everywhere

Im sorry im not being clear with my thoughts.

god im so shit at writing, im better at talking, sorry

The problem with compiling lists of what needs to be done before one could contemplate prostitution being just another job is that people like Jean Urquhart will argue but if it were legalised all these safeguards could be put in place.

It's the illegality which prevents the protection applying. It's basically all the fault of that unholy alliance of certain feminists and right wing religious types which is the problem.

Try and think about the idea of force feeding someone tea as a thought experiment? It's a perfectly reasonable analogy to me. It's not an analogy for consensual sex, it's an analogy for rape. Tea should be nice, sex should be nice - forced sex isn't nice.

It's not reasonable to force sex on people, whatever your "drives". Just like it wouldn't be reasonable for you to pour tea down their throat and would actually be quite horrible.

But branleuse despite everyone having a sex drive, prostituted women are not acting on that sex drive. Sucking 10 cocks a night for £10 a go does not have anything to do with a pen innate sex drive.

no but wanting your cock sucked and thinking hey, ill pay someone to do it, isnt necessarily about sadism either

But it is to do with thinking that by paying you have the right to be abusive. Which is where the analogy with the coffee man comes in.

It's not about viewing your sexual partner as an equal, though, is it?

There are two sex drive alternatives - go out on the pull and see what happens, or masturbation.

Using a prostitute is different to either of these, surely, or anyone who could afford it, man or woman, would do so?

Anyone having sex with a prostitute knows that they are buying consent: that the person they are putting their dick into doesn't want it there.

Doing something sexually that you don't want to do is damaging: it's assault or rape if no money changes hands. So how is this different?

I think its different yeah, but I think theres a great deal of people who think using a prostitute is "sad" rather than abusive, and wouldnt do it because they can get it for free etc. No less misogynistic, and there are others that are desperate for human contact and got no other way to get it. Theres a massive market in the "girlfriend experience" where they sit and talk and pretend theyre on a date or she pretends she loves him.

I think if youre looking for a solution to a problem that is as old as time, then it doesnt help if you dont look at the multitude of reasons why men might do it and why women might, without suggesting removing even more agency from the poorest of the poor.

I dont even think there is an answer

But then we are back to where we started - why shouldn't this man have the agency to scald himself for money, with that logic?

So branleuse the act of paying someone to suck your cock is not about sadism, what is it about?

well yeah. Why shouldnt he if he had no other way of making money?
what had led that man to that point where he said yes to that. Should we be grateful the sadist involved asked him first rather than being one of the fuckers that just kick shit out of random street sleepers for fun, or like the tory boys club where they have to burn £50 in front of a homeless guy as an intitiation?

Its awful that he would even be in the place where that was his only option

Really, do you think that the ONLY reason someone would pay for sex is because of hatred and sadism?
Is it really so black and white?

Exactly. And destitute people should be able to sell their kidneys to rich people.

That's a pretty poor sort of agency, don't you think?

I think paying for sex is done by people who are arrogant, dehumanize those they pay for sex, unwilling to confront the abuse they are inflicting, selfish, entitled.

Usually they other those who they use. They would never continence their mum, sister, wife, daughter "earning a living" selling sex so they have to think of prostitued women as something else, women who choose to sell sex, women who like sex, women who are merely acting on an atavistic sexual urge....

Branleuse, this is what men say to other punters about prostitutes. Read, for example, the first one, where he didn't care that her genitals were sore.

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com

I have had a look at that blog. I have read some seriously vile and misogynistic things in my time but that was by far the worst. I think I lasted about 2 minutes before shutting it down. I cannot imagine what it must do to someone's mental health and self esteem to be faced with men like that day in and day out. It makes me feel ill

What should we think of pretty young women who marry rich old men? There seems to be an exchange of similar sorts there. I doubt Fabiana Flosi would have married Bernie Ecclestone if he had been in an ordinary job.