examples of misogyny permeating our culture, demonstrated by the bloke pouring hot coffee on his head.

[UnDeuxTroisCatsSank]

I read this article about a homeless man who accepted $5 from an arrogant shit in exchange for pouring hot coffee over his head. And the arrogant shit filmed it on his phone, presumably for "fun".

The homeless man, Ronald Leggatt, explained later he was desperate for the money and so willing to take the burns from the hot coffee.

Shocking and appalling behavior from the arrogant shit.

There's a happier ending in that someone overheard the whole thing, confronted the shit and then tried to make things better for Mr. Leggatt, including paying for him to get into a shelter during Hurricane Jonas and getting him some clothes from Walmart.

But this whole sorry story got me thinking. About the parallels with prostitution. Hang on, bear with me.

I just thought that most people would be appalled by the story of Mr Leggatt and empathize with his desperation to get $5 and yet when women are desperate, penniless, just surviving in dire financial straits and ready to do something, anything even though it will cause them harm such as sell their bodies, I don't see good Samaritans rushing to buy them clothes in Walmart and checking them into hostels for the night.

I think many people feel that people working as prostitutes are (a) willing and (b) maybe even like it. Never considering what desperation can make a person do.

Mr Leggatt was desperate and acted in a way that most people would never do.
Many prostituted women are desperate and act in a way that many people would never do.

One is understood and receives empathy, the other not only accepted but vilified, judged and othered.

Just thoughts about the misogyny that permeates our culture.

(And I hope Mr Leggatt gets medical help and support, because he does sound desperate, poor bloke.)

Quite, Palmer!

I also think this type of man has a fundamental blind spot about women's agency. It's as if "liking sex" means totally different things for men and women in their minds.

When a man "likes sex" they (this type of man) mean it in the way one would normally think of "liking" - as meaning taking pleasure from an activity in circumstances (in the case of sex with a partner one finds desirable), and at a time, of one's choosing.

But I think this sort of man glosses the idea of a woman liking sex quite differently - they think of it as "passively acquiescing to what the man wants". So a woman who "likes" sex will have it (in their weirdly warped mindset) with all comers, while a woman who wishes only to engage with partners of her choosing clearly (again in their mindset) "doesn't like" sex (and they presume is usually doing it for some sort of twisted reason like trapping them into marriage or getting pregnant or something).

I think that it's not just one type of man - I think that many men, who haven't really thought hard about it, think the same way.

I know that DP who is generally a perfectly nice chap, hadn't thought about porn being unhealthy not just for the women involved, but also for society, until I suggested he look at the descriptions on the front page of a porn site, and had him consider if it was the sign of a good society to have 50% pleasure themselves watching videos describing the other 50% that way.

I think that most men are so far sheltered from the thought of what prostitution actually means for a woman, that it just doesn't occur to them that it's harmful, and, they don't really want to think about it, so go on the defensive.

I hope that in many of them, this thought takes root and they come around to realising the damage, but I don't know how realistic the hope is.

I do like your descriptions though Lurcio - they do ring bells from discussions I've had

I think the trouble is that porn actresses - and prostitutes, although maybe to a lesser extent - HAVE to appear to be enjoying what's happening to them, otherwise they'd be out of a job. So men are able to perpetuate the myth of a sort of other class of women who are permanently up for it and therefore fair game to use in a way they wouldn't dream of wanting to see their wives/girlfriends/sisters etc used.

Yy lurky - some of the Invisible Men are very affronted if the prostitute seems not to enjoy it or has any human issues like soreness or tiredness...

I think the block in thinking is that men view women's prostitution as women having sex for money implying active engagement and possible enjoyment. But the vast majority of women in prostitution are getting fucked for money which to my mind implies not just the passivity of women, but the lack of engagement between prostitute and punter.

This is also why it's important that men realise that if they were prostitutes, they wouldn't be gigalos with sexual agency making some money off giving a desperate woman a pity fuck (which is how most imagine it) - they'd actually be the passive one in the transaction, in the more dangerous position and probably suffering from psychological if not also physical damage to earn money.

yes I agree it does seem to show a double standard in 'suffering' but I still feel a lot of sympathy for this man, what a terrible thing to do

Isn't the issue here though that so long as you have some prostitutes saying that they DO enjoy having sex and that they DO want to do it, your arguments will be dismissed ? Also the analogy with men being buggered for money doesn't quite work since heterosexual men do not at other times freely choose to engage in passive anal sex. Sex is not necessarily harmful, and outside of some "radical" ideas it is usually thought of as a extremely pleasurable. Pouring boiling liquids on yourself is always harmful.

Don't get me wrong, I want to see the end of prostitution as well, but i just don't think these arguments quite add up. Unfortunately there has to be a realisation and acceptance that a (vocal) number of women appear to actually want to be hookers.

Your position is that all sex that is paid for is damaging to the individual selling it ? My position is that it is not as simple as that.

Ok so some prostitutes are having "freely wanted" wanted sex, so we agree on that. I do not agree that most people think that prostitution is harmless to women, it is the case that probably a small number of men who use prostitutes think that, but most people do not assume that prostitutes are not in danger.

I think that you will find that my thinking on this is more than adequate to the complexity of the situation smile

Ooh, get you.

My issue isn't that all prostitution is harmful - it's that MANY people (especially men) cannot imagine the situation where it is harmful, it's always the belief that prostitution for women is like a one night stand is for some men or, using Melinda's example category 2 things that are enjoyable or at least not actively unpleasant.

The truth is that, actually, for many sex workers it falls very much in category 1 - and I'd argue that forced sex for women can be as physically damaging as anal sex for men, particularly when you include the heightened risk that women have of catching STDs from penetrative sex and of course the very real risk of pregnancy.

While women face poverty in our society, prostitution will always be an option for them. You can't re-programme women to face homelessness and hunger.

I used to live in a red light area, no one, and I mean not a single person I spoke to thought that the women were safe, happy or were healthy.

I think that when people think of the "happy hooker" they think of a different type of prostitute, it is the latter that may be seen as "acceptable" by some people, i have not met anyone who thinks that street prostitution is fine, perhaps we differ there.

What i struggle with is that I feel (could be wrong) that there is a desire to paint prostitution as ONLY being something engaged in by desperate and isolated women. it sadly isn't, but we don't want to criticise these women and we must paint them all as victims and remind everyone that well, they wouldn't do it if it wasn't for men. By this logic, we should exonerate drug dealers and punish the users.

I have no problem in simply saying that their exercising of their own free will is harmful to society and it should not be legal. We don't need to equate it to men getting anally raped or tipping boiling water on yourself for that to be the case.

But Melinda - we do want to deny them their agency right ? What is so bad about saying that ?

You are correct - nobody talked about reprogramming women. But you are just repeating the same point over and over about whether or not women want to be prostitutes or not. I'd guess the vast majority do not. I'd also guess that the vast majority see no other way of earning a living. And I don't see anyone talking about the alternatives for these women. They must be stuck in a cycle of poverty and desperation. What do we do about that?

Neither was mine. Try reading again.