To thick for feminism?

[fastingmum123]

Ok so to start with I'm interested I believe in equal rights and have been lurking on feminist sites and Twitter feeds for a while. The thing is half the time I feel like i can't be involved as everyone always seems so clever and half the time speak another language with all their turf, cis ect ect talk. If you ask what anything means you get scornful responses telling you to look it up ect and tbh it just puts me off having anything to do with it.

Then there's the other weird side where you get the man haters who are all death to all men and just seem plain crazy. Along with them "man bumped into me said sorry. Sexist bastard" types that just don't make any sense what so ever.

Am I the only one who feels they don't fit in?

The consent rule - it winds me up very much when people tickle children against their will, and also people demanding hugs and kisses. When they were little I stood up for them - your cute little grandchild/cousin/whatever does not feel like being hugged today, can you just fuck off - but a bit more politely ... Now I don't quite know what to do. Perhaps I'll teach them to just hold out their hands to shake ...

Me too. He tickles me though in front of the kids to the point I hit him. Even though I say stop and have said numerous times I hate it.

Like the idea of teaching them to shake hands it's much more polite anyway. Always remember hiding in the loo when one of my aunties was leaving so I wouldn't have to kiss her.

"Sounds much cleverer than 'it's boring innit'" - indeed. But is probably a good deal less accurate. OP, you'll find jargon, wanky pretentious bollocks (like my post) and infighting in just about every political and/philosophical movement you can name: be it feminism, liberalism or even plain old-fashioned marxism. Some terms are interesting and important (you tend to notice things more if there's a term for them and they provide a better basis for discussion) - others are just fighting words.

uglyswan "you'll find jargon, wanky pretentious bollocks (like my post) and infighting in just about every political and/philosophical movement you "

this is one reason I don't go round saying "I'm a (whatever)" here, with the exception of saying I'm an atheist. Occasionally someone says "you are an atheist - what do you think about x y z" and I have no idea what they are talking about, because to me it's a simple as not believing in God and wanting amendments to religious privilege in law.

I'm wary of using term "feminist" because it seems to mean so many things other than equal rights. And tbh I have heard self proclaimed feminists say that they can't see the point of things like paternity leave. Then there is the more complex matter of parenthood, which I see separately to feminism. Oh, and then there's the "victimhood" problem.

So in all, a lot of problems with it. And "egalitarian" seems to not be a real thing or seems to have been hijacked by MRA.

lorelei: "I'm wary of using term "feminist" because it seems to mean so many things other than equal rights."

I do see what you mean: specifically because in my book feminism does not mean equal rights at all (e.g. reproductive rights can never be equal) and in general too, as there is no 'official' definition of the term (everyone has their own favourite defining quote, but there's still no consensus), so you don't know what positions you are implicitly aligning yourself with. But I don't see that as a reason not to "come out" as feminist - on the contrary, there's currently another threads live on FWR where the OP seems to be labouring under the delusion that feminism is some sort of "hive mind" (we're bees, apparently, or the borg) whereas the reality is much more diverse. And that's healthy, imo, and should really be acknowledged much more.

I agree that we should agree that we don't agree with each other all the time. Why should we? It's another attempt at dehumanising women.

ugly, what is FWR please?

I don't think of it as a hive mentality either but I'd need to be confident in an underlying definition in order to use the term more often.

e.g. atheist - person who doesn't believe in god - seems to be universally understood, regardless of what some people might add to it.

I actually think a lot of people shy away from using the word feminist because of a lack of knowledge/understanding of a baseline for what it means.

Melinda, thanks for the FWR explanation.

another thought - then we get campaigns like the T shirt that said "this is what a feminist looks like" and I feel like I've been told for not understanding something, again, and that people aren't willing to explain it.

then there's the issue of being childfree and feeling that feminism is heavily focused on issues that I see as being issues belonging to parents rather than "women".

PS well, my understanding of feminism is that it's quite focused on parenthood stuff - I may have misunderstood!

see, even posting about what I don't understand is confusing.

Hadn't even realised this wasn't called feminism and women's rights any more - thanks Melinda!

I think the "this is what a feminist looks like" t-shirt campaign was an attempt to de-demonise feminism and take it into the mainstream. But I don't think it was ever especially conducive to a better public understanding - even before Theresa May wore one.

" I feel like I've been told for not understanding something, again, and that people aren't willing to explain it." I agree that this is no way to further public debate. But sometimes you'll get trolls on feminist sites professing to "not understand" something, but they're really just there to provoke a reaction and waste everyone's time and energy. So some online feminists tend to shoot first and answer questions later, which is a shame.

Being childfree myself, I'm not terribly aware of feminist parenting discussions, so I tend to concentrate more on the ideology behind and consequences of gendered divisions of labour - but you know, rich fucking tapestry and all that...

Many women report first encountering sexism when they get pregnant or after having a baby. This can be both at work and at home. A low proportion of families share childcare and housework equally between parents. That probably contributes to motherhood being a big feminist issue.

...but by no means is it the only big issue!!

as is so often the case, I find myself understanding the points made and agreeing - but they don't change the complexity (to my mind) of saying "I'm a feminist". I find "I believe in equal rights" to be better understood in the real world.

"equal rights" feels like I'm giving the same simple explanation of myself as I am when I say "I'm an atheist".

but now I'm repeating myself so I will stop.

Just an observation- can anyone imagine any circumstances where a group of men would join in a discussion starting by saying how thick they are?

Haha I can't see that happening very often. Thank you for all your replies and glad to see I'm not the only person who feels this.

I'd like to second TheWoman's post about how many women (and some men) come to feminism when they have children. How you are treated as a pregnant woman, as a new mother, as a mother of toddler, as a mother of school children etc etc. I could write a book about it.

But feminism is not just about parenthood. Maybe it's a bit biased here because it's mumsnet and probably majority of posters are parents? But also because in my experience at the workplace lots of people seem to want to believe that women's career obstacles are entirely due to them having babies. This way they can "solve" the problem by offering child care or say that it's your choice without tackling the systematic discrimination that goes on.

And an interesting observation it is too, Bertrand. On the other hand, I can't think of many discussion forums where men feel too intimidated to join in the conversation in the first place. If in doubt we can always bullshit our way through a discussion - thank the lord for google.....

What, melinda, do you think it's because they might get death threats? Or have their faces photoshopped onto picture of genitalia? Or because people might say they are on their way round to rape them? Surely not...............

Who was it who said that men are worried that women might laugh at them, and women are worried that men might kill them?

Dh and I were talking about all this the other day - me having reached "peak trans" and having been called a TERF because I posted that "if gender is non-binary, how can anyone be trans" and the fact that I don't really identify as feminist, so how can I be a TERF anyway.

I will use anyone's preferred name and pronouns - because that's being polite. I prefer unisex bathrooms (single cubicle with sink inside) for all, because they're just easier - particularly at certain times of the month. However, I think that people are conflating gender and sex, and particularly when it comes to women's rights to a safe space (FFS, even typing that makes me cringe internally) I think that the trans issue is a load of men coming in with their menz-are-teh-best-and-know everything and overruling what women want or need. I do not agree with male and female brains. I object to the pinkification of girls, and the stereotyping of activities as belonging to one or the other. (as a child I did ballet and gymnastics - neither of which was easy - but also loved building lego and climbing trees and had permanently skinned knees for a while). I have no idea what people mean when they say they've "always felt like a woman" despite being 40 next year, I just feel like me. I wear a dress/skirt on about half a dozen occasions a year, if that. I very rarely wear make-up. I am generally found in jeans/cords and walking boots.

I think that if I had been a teenager now, I would've found it difficult not to identify as trans. I wore men's jeans (levi 501s) with doc marten boots. My "blouses" for school were men's shirts (much better cotton content so held ironing better, and weren't see through!). I didn't enjoy the whole "bitching girls" conversations. Men have it FAR easier than women...who wouldn't want that.