Aibu to think this is not a solution to paedophilia

[TheXxed]

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japanese-company-manufactures-lifelike-child-sex-dolls-for-paedophiles-a6811046.html

A company in Japan wants to manufacture life like sex dolls of young girls, I feel sick to my stomach. I am so dumbstruck by this I don't even know how to articulate how upset I am.

Would it be possible to have a serious discussion about this without seeing which feminist can out-vomit the other? From skim reading the article, it seems that for some paedophiles, the dolls may prevent child abuse.

Is it worth discussing on this board, or will we be knee-deep in tomato skins and sweetcorn?

I think Japan has massively different attitudes towards child abuse than more western societies. I remember reading about the large number of underage anime comics that are legal and weirdly used.

Personally I think they need a huge culturally shift.

I don't know if I can have a conversation about men raping children without vomiting.

I don't want to click on that link so soon after eating, but my understanding of deviancy is that people start off with something relatively mild and continue to breakdown their own barriers until they get to the final act.

So a paedophile will read fantasy stories / anime first, then progress on to real life pictures, then videos etc. Creating these dolls in the thought that they'd replace actual children in this context seems wilfully naïve - surely it's just going to help break down another barrier?

Great point dodo a similar point was made in this Atlantic article

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/01/can-child-dolls-keep-pedophiles-from-offending/423324/

Okay, hopefully breakfast has been digested. I have two questions. If the research of Dr Beier proved to be valid, and if (and it they are BIG ifs) further research proved that some of these dolls prevented abuse, would they be a valid treatment in the short term? Or is this something that science should not countenance in the first place?

I'd agree Dodo.

I'm not sure that normalising sex with children by producing life like dolls for perverts to practice on is the right direction.

There's too much noise at the moment about how peadophilia is just a sexual orientation, like heterosexuality or homosexuality, and that it's all just fine and lovely.

No. No, it isn't.

I'm not sure how I feel about these dolls.

But I will say there's an awful lot of ignorance when it comes to paedophilia. That feeling you get when you're attracted to a man or woman, the butterflies or whatever, imagine being born, growing up, and realising you only feel that way for children. Imagine just how fucking terrifying and disgusting that would be for you. Imagine never ever having a proper adult relationship because you're just simply not attracted to them.

BUT

that doesn't mean they should act on their feelings, just like men who like women shouldn't rape them or vice versa. Those that do are scum of the worst kind.

I do kind of see why these dolls have been made. But I fear there could be escalation as the people want to move on to the 'real thing'

And...

there you go.

Sorry Palmer have you got a problem with people discussing the fact that sexual preferences are not chosen?

No one said it's 'fine and lovely' did they? So don't try and shut down the narrative just because you don't like what's being said.

Oh dear god
I haven't clicked on the link but that is an awful idea

Sorry Grays, when you've been sexually abused as a small child, you tend to have a slightly jaded view of people who hand wring for the type of men who hurt you that badly.

Carry on with your narrative.

I'm all ears.

I don't think paedophilia is fine and dandy. It can be dangerous and result in sexual assault (assuming that not all paedophiles carry acts out). It should not be viewed as an 'acceptable' sexual orientation, as it cannot be between consenting adults.

However, it is out there, and has to be countenanced, however, unpleasant.

As a thought experiment, and nothing more, imagine a manufacturer of lifelike dogs or cats. These stuffed, inanimate objects can be bought for the owner to treat as they wish. Some buyers kick and beat the object. It is found that the RSPCA notices a subsequent dramatic decline in abused cats and dogs over a prolonged period. Would it be worth further investigation, to try to establish causation? As with all thought experiments, the usual disclaimers apply - cats and dogs are not human, etc etc.

I am curious as to whether anyone feels that personal revulsion should trump scientific research into unpleasant subjects, in cases where scientific methods might alleviate human suffering in the long term. It applies to other areas, not just this specific article.

Palmer I'm very sorry to hear that, but then perhaps this isn't the discussion for you if you cannot prevent yourself from projecting and trying to shut down the views of others? I was abused by my friends dad when I slept at their house. I'm not naive to it myself.

If we understood paedophilia more we could activly do more to prevent it, to treat it and stop more children from being hurt.

And I repeat, I said being attracted to children is NOT a choice, but acting on that attraction IS a choice and is abhorrent.

Palmer, I'm sorry that such an awful thing happened to you. But Grays was very careful to draw a distinction between the feelings some men have but don't act on - and I assume they can't help feeling the way they do - and those who act on those feelings. ('Those that do are scum of the worst kind.)

I think how to stop the former becoming the latter is an incredibly valid discussion. I'm not sure that dolls like this are the answer - quite the opposite, as others have said.

Thankyou Jassy, I was worried I hadn't articulated what I meant clearly enough

It seemed pretty clear to me, but in such an emotive subject linked to personal trauma I can see how

Argh! ... See how the whole subject is just beyond fraught.

I don't agree with the comparisons between pedophillia and normal, healthy adult romantic relationships.

Because you could extend this feeling then to any sexual deviant. What about those who have sex with animals? Do they experience butterflies when coming across farm animals? What about those who get pleasure from rape, or murder? Do we feel sorry for them, because society prevents them from being able to realise their true desires?

In my eyes, pedophillia is a mental disorder that has no cure. They are attracted to undeveloped bodies, and a big part of the attraction is preying on the fact that children are weak and vulnerable. They don't care about the person. They don't care to think about the harm that they do, and they nearly always find a way to justify their feelings and behaviour. I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who indulges in these fantasies without any impulse control.

I do agree that producing these dolls will only fuel the abnormal desires of pedophiles.

I agree with you pizza its a perversion, we should not by normalising this.

A thought experiment: you can choose between two otherwise identical neighbours, both of whom are fixated on children. They are identical in terms of treatment except that one has one of these dolls. Which would be safest to live next door to?

I don't think there's an obvious answer. I suppose if I had to choose between a situation where the nearest thing to a child that a paedophile on the verge of offending can access is my actual child, and a situation where the nearest thing they can access is a plastic doll - well then them having a doll seems safer. For that reason I wouldn't oppose anyone researching this. But what if it was only safer in the short-term and actually put my child at more risk after a while? What if the child most at risk is the child nearest to a paedophile who has previously experimented with a doll? I don't think any of us are qualified to judge that really.

I'm not comparing it to a normal healthy relationship to try and say they're akin, I'm just trying to get across the fact that this is a mental illness that has stripped someone of normal, healthy and socially acceptable desires and given them perverted, dangerous and harmful ones.

And I'm not sure how that is trying to normalise it either? I'm saying we need to understand so we can treat and prevent.

I have no sympathy for someone who 'indulges' either, but I have got sympathy for those who recognise they have a problem and have NEVER ACTED and have begged for chemical castration and the like.

If we created a situation in which more men who have got these thoughts and feelings to come forward and seek help, I think this would benefit us all greatly. It would also allow us as healthcare professionals keep track of them. Instead right now they're isolated and I suspect reach out to people who have the same illness for some sort of.. I dunno support?.. but this then creates a toxic environment spurning fantasy, the spread of child abuse photos, normalisation, excuses etc

We need to get them away from the underground

Do we feel sorry for them, because society prevents them from being able to realise their true desires?

That's not why I feel sorry for someone like that. If I felt sorry for them, it would be because they were born with disgusting desires and impulses and there's little in the way of them seeking help.

I'm not sure I buy the idea that paedophilia is an innate sexuality. I think it is probably significantly bound up with culturally constructed ideas about sex, power, purity, taboo, desire and agency. So I'm not with you Grays because I think you are constructing something as natural and inevitable which I don't agree is necessarily natural or innate.

If a person's enjoyment of sex is dependent on non-consensual situations, whether that's flashers, rapists, child rapists, sadists, whatever, then they should definitely not be pandered to and I believe any attempts to fulfil a desire in a safe situation will merely validate it and strengthen the urge to commit the act for real.

In Japan there's a niche obsession with sex and groping on trains. A few years ago a sex club opened that imitated a train station and train carriages so people could fulfil their somewhat strange fantasies in a consensual environment. Since then the number of sexual assaults, flashing and masturbation on trains has increased significantly . Now this may be because of better recording of statistics, but I'd wager it's because the frisson of the safe environment wore off and people wanted to move on to the real thing and that a likely motive was the thrill of violating the boundaries of other passengers.