General Trans thread part 2

[ChiefClerkDrumknott]

Following on from this one General Trans thread
Because I'm not Elsa and can't let it go

Even a quick read of this thread suggest there is a lot of anger. ..
Some examples...

You don't need examples. I told you that we are angry

This "debate" between radical feminism and the trans community is being seen by mainstream as a particularly nasty fight with some issues, risks and fears (on both sides) being deliberately exaggerated.

And who do you think started the fight? I think you'll find some rad fem fears stem from being threatened with death and rape when they bring up objections to some of these 'issues' you glibly dismiss. Do you not think that's an understandable reaction? By the way, have you popped over to Twitter or Tumblr yet to plead with 'TERF' killers to be less aggressive?

As mentioned earlier, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps the best solution is to get even angrier, even more offensive and aggressive...

You know what, as I said we are angry and we are 'aggressive', if you term defending women's rights vocally and loudly and consistently aggressive

Besides, you'll notice that these transwomen are excelling at minority sports, wait until one of them rocks up at Wimbledon.

True. May only be a question of time. Remember trans woman Renee Richards? Never entered Wimbledon but played several years at the US Open. Her best result was the third round I think.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/maria-miller-says-only-hostility-to-transgender-report-came-from-women-purporting-to-be-feminists-a6830406.html

I haven't got time to catch up on the thread atm so not sure if this has been mentioned already. (Sorry if it has).

It always strikes me how people like Miller don't seem to listen to arguments against the tg report, and denounce anyone slightly worried as transphobic, giving no real considerations to any of their arguments.

I'd really find it interesting to actually hear someone like Miller define terms such as gender, woman, man; explain how gender can be fluid and binary; and provide an actual response to worries about women-only spaces and the like that go beyond the tw aren't rapists you transphobe.

Scallops- Test would definitely change body fat percentage IMO. I'm really conflicted on this issue because sport by is natural is an unfair contest.

The very best sports people in the world have won the genetic lottery, had the best coaching and worked the hardest. That's why they are the best. Is it more or less unfair for someone born as a man to compete against females than say a footballer who's been in Man united academy since he was 6? Both of them have had huge advantage. I don't know if that makes any sense particularly. Nobody says it's unfair that the Williams sister compete against women even though ( it looks to me) they have significantly more muscle than the other female competitors.

Also these expectional talents, like tiger woods or Williams sisters, make every one else raise their game. What happens if in 10 years the gap between male and female competition is narrow because woman have had to up their game.

As I've said in the other thread, we need a webchat with Maria Miller.

So because the Williams sisters have manly physiques it's fine for men to compete against women? That's the one of stupidest arguments I've ever heard.

Jeremy clarkson just popped up on my newsfeed...

Queen so you don't think physical attributes play a part in becoming truly the best at your sport? all I am saying is sport is unfair. It's always been unfair.

Who do you think stands the best chance at getting to play in the nba, the 6ft man or the 7ft person? Would Steve Redgrave win so many Olympic golds if he was 6ft?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2555752-Can-we-have-Maria-Miller-for-a-webchat

So now your argument is that sport is inherently unfair therefore we may as well let men compete against women. You're on a stupid argument roll today.

Thank you for your well thought out counter argument queen

So its also okay for random adults to compete in childrens contests, and able bodied people in the disabled competitions? You know, as sport is inherantly unfair and sex is just another minor characteristic like height or precise muscle mass...

Just seen that the WEP thread has been deleted. For 'breaking talk guidelines'.

So can I take it Mide that you're going to campaign against weight divisions in boxing? Or age restrictions in football? Surely poor old competitive dad should be able to join the under elevens team so he can have the chance of glory he missed out on as an adult through being crap.

Women joining men's golf tournaments isn't inherently unfair to the men, because the women are 'reaching up' rather than men reaching down. Women don't have inherent advantages over men so it wouldn't be an issue. Whereas lana lawless has an inherent advantage in her male physique thereby devaluing the achievements of women in the field.

Also, the radical in radfem doesn't mean extremist or fundamentalist, it means a feminist perspective that assumes that inequality of the sexes is due to structural inequality that is built into society. As opposed to liberal feminism which seems to be about women making individual choices and being empowered to be 'free' within their existing pre determined limits rather than challenging those limits. And capitalist feminism which (is rare and) believes that market forces will bring about the equality of the sexes eventually, ignoring the structural inequality that is inherent in a capitalist society.

I thought it was about as well thought out as any of your arguments. If you manage to put together a vaguely sensible argument then I will give you a well thought out and reasoned response. As it is I'm not sure why I'm bothering to even talk to you.

Age or weight classes isn't the same comparison IMO. you wouldn't let a 10 year old compete against a grown person but plenty of 18 year olds compete against much older people. Trans women are actively doing something to reduce there advantage, same as someone dropping a weight class

I give up

What happened on the WEP thread to get it deleted?

Op should probably have paid for a member request!

Mide, trans women are reducing their advantage against men in boxing, etc. By entering a female contest, they are at less advantage than a non-hormonally treated man.. But that's not the point, is it, because such a man is prohibited from entering

Men have a big advantage over women at golf, i suppose it is just to do with being able to hit harder and take less club than a woman needs to hit it the same distance, hence men can be more accurate. The difference as I understand is very large.

I think I struggle here that the more we sit here harping on about the huge differences that exist phyisically between men and women, aren't we playing into the hands of those who would claim that gender roles are inevitable. Men do X because they are stronger. Testosterone makes mens brains develop in different ways to womens...and so on and so forth.

Itll, you've said that a couple of times on a couple of threads and I don't understand why.

Do you not agree that, whilst there is an overlap in the strength/speed/height/reach bell curves for men and women, the men at the top of their bell curves will have higher figures than the women at the top of theirs?

That's nothing to do with intelligence, child caring etc.

Venus - don't know. There were 2. The one I posted on got zapped. The other is still standing (I think).

I think there are studies showing that Afro-Caribbean men are more likely to have the fast twitch muscles good for sprinting than Caucasian men. As far as I know, no one has tried to say, "and this means... about their respective brains" - so why the worry here?

Watcher, it's because the OP was soliciting MNers' views without MNHQ sanction.