Suicide-a feminist issue?

[whenwomenruletheworld]

Tragically high male suicide rates have I think wrongly painted this as a men's issue. Aren't all the suicides men and women tragedies? And if the "man up/grow a pair" culture is in part responsible for men killing themselves in such numbers, when will society see feminism as the main opponent to the patriarchal bullshit which creates these gender stereotypes as the main hope for both men and women of dismantling them? It is disheartening to hear men talk disparagingly about feminism when my God the alternatives PUA nonsense MRA, UKIP, are so totally discredited. As someone posted on here when will there be a men's rights movement which embraces feminism as it's sister movement and which focuses on things which damage everyone?

And unpaid care work is usually fine by women and is often manual and risky (bursting c section stitches hailing an older child or frail grandparent about, for example)

mmm hmm.

Anecdote is not data.

Indeed it is not. Yet you seem to be using them to support your arguments.

Sorry palmer I'm not buying that women aren't binmen/scaffolders/working on the roads because they are excluded. Women have gained representation and even dominance in many other industries, so these ones, which most men do not want to do either, must be especially effective and shutting out females. It doesn't make sense.

My problem with MRAs is that it seems inconsistent to say on the one hand that feminism is not needed anymore (which I gather is what most of them think), or is damaging/flawed whatever, but on the other "lets have a movement for men's rights".

Don't be snide, itll.

Your argument seemed to be that because your grandfathers were disabled by their jobs and your grandmothers were not disabled by childbirth, men had it riskier. I was pointing out that you can't draw that conclusion from a sample size of four.

Then I went on to cite (whilst stating that i didn't know figures, though you omitted that from your partial - in both senses -quote) possible times where women doing unpaid work (which isn't usually counted in any kind of job related injury statistics but which is still work, of course) could be injured.

"Women have gained representation and even dominance in many other industries, so these ones, which most men do not want to do either, must be especially effective and shutting out females. It doesn't make sense."

Do you believe that a woman interviewing or applying for a refuse worker job, on the same day as a man interviews or applies for it, would have an absolutely equal chance of getting it? There would be no subconscious or overt preference in the recruiter's mind?

Incidentally, the same subconscious or overt preference might be there, the other way, when recruiting a care worker or nursery nurse, but to say effectively "if women wanted these jobs they would have them" is a tad simplistic.

Sorry palmer I'm not buying that women aren't binmen/scaffolders/working on the roads because they are excluded. Women have gained representation and even dominance in many other industries, so these ones, which most men do not want to do either, must be especially effective and shutting out females. It doesn't make sense.

Interesting.

Which fields, other than child care and care do women have dominance in, exactly?

And what precisely doesn't make sense about the expressions closed shops, legal exclusions and family affairs?

The point I made is that these jobs might not be the kind of thing that Oxbridge grads want, they are however well paid in comparison with other unskilled labour and therefore tend to be jobs that are attractive to men for other reasons. I also made the point that the people men already working in those industries actively and passively exclude women from them.

Please, tell what you don't understand about that, and I'll try and explain it again in a way you can.

And childbirth isn't dangerous? Oh, dear lord!

TWITW - OK - i apologise if you think I am being snide.

Your belief is that the number of women popping stitches out of their c-section wounds, or spraining a wrist helping an elderly relative up to the bathroom when added to the injuries women sustain in the workplace, is at least the same as if not more than the amount of men who injure themselves in the workplace no ? My position is that if you are counting all unpaid work, then you have to add on for example men injuring themselves doing DIY or shifting furniture for elderly relatives and so and so forth.

Melinda

OK, you are suggesting that my position that men suffer more workplace injuries than women is equivalent to saying that women suffer no injuries at all?

oh sorry :) i got the wrong end of the stick....just read it again.

"Your belief is that the number of women popping stitches out of their c-section wounds, or spraining a wrist helping an elderly relative up to the bathroom when added to the injuries women sustain in the workplace, is at least the same as if not more than the amount of men who injure themselves in the workplace no "

No, that's not my position.

Itll, are you seriously comparing a man doing some DIY or shifting furniture to the multiple hours of unpaid care work women provide each day?

My position is that far more day to day female labour is uncaptured in any job statistics than male labour. Some of that female labour may be risky.

palmer - before i go any further can you show me where i said that child birth was not dangerous ? have you read all my submissions on this thread ?

Itll, are you seriously comparing a man doing some DIY or shifting furniture to the multiple hours of unpaid care work women provide each day?

we're debating (I thought) whether men generally engage in more or less physically damaging or risky work than woman do, obviously I am therefore comparing it, yes.

have you read all my submissions on this thread ?

Yes, with increasing awe and wonder. I must have missed the one where you backed up your belief that Women have gained representation and even dominance in many other industries remiss of me I know, I'm sure you'll point it out to me though.

we're debating (I thought) whether men generally engage in more or less physically damaging or risky work than woman do, obviously I am therefore comparing it, yes.

I rather thought you might be. Comparing leisure activities to work seems a bit off, but no doubt you have your reasons. Perhaps you'd like to answer some of the other questions people have asked? I believe Melinda had some pertinent ones.

A number of complaints have been made about the tv version of War and Peace

The birth scene was too graphic and bloody

I mentioned this to dh and said that apparently seeing men blown up and bloodied in war was ok, but god forbid we should see a sometimes realistic birth scene...birth is easy and clean isnt it

I coukd see him thinking "how is she managing to turn this into a feminist issue"

Hang on a second. I posted on this thread stating that although I felt men do generally perform riskier manual tasks and suffer more workplace injury than women (for example) this did not warrant such a thing as a mens rights movement.

In response, i was reminded that women give birth and that the might injure themselves in other "unpaid" work that they do. If a man repairs the roof of his own or a neighbours house for example, falls out a ladder pruning a tree in the garden, this is apparently "a hobby" and doesn't count.

Anyone suggesting that any occupation has significant female representation to the extent that females shape it is delusional, personal experience does not count, anecdotes can only be used unchallenged if they support the general view that women have it worse in every respect and always have. I despair. Finally, and predictably, it appears that I have been "accused" of being a man for not participating in the echo chamber.

I don't think you are a man, itsll.

The unpaid care work I am referring to and comparing with a job is the day in day out occupation of many women (and a few men, who should also be in any stats). This might be for spouse, child or parent. The stats need to reflect this work as it keeps so many women out of the official workforce and, without it, the female experience is being under reported.

It isn't the same as an occasional favour for a neighbour done around the day job.

What were your thoughts on my question about women applying to be refuse workers?

I don't think you are a man, itsll. I don't see where anyone said that, perhaps I missed it.

The unpaid care work I am referring to and comparing with a job is the day in day out occupation of many women (and a few men, who should also be in any stats). This might be for spouse, child or parent. The stats need to reflect this work as it keeps so many women out of the official workforce and, without it, the female experience is being under reported.

It isn't the same as an occasional favour for a neighbour done around the day job.

What were your thoughts on my question about women applying to be refuse workers? Or around prostitution being included as a risky job, given it is legal.

And to ask you for examples of jobs where women dominate, when that is your assertion, is not calling you delusional. It's asking a question,

Again, I don't know the overall balance of risk between male and female work - I do know that excluding prostitution and women's unpaid work won't give a full picture. Especially if we are comparing not only risk but "pay for risk" as well (IIRC, risky jobs tend to acknowledge that somewhat in the pay).

Oops,, ignore the first of the above two posts!

Sorry, I have missed far too many posts to be able to add my tuppenorth but thank you all very, very much. This is really helpful and informative for me personally.

A couple of points I did want to come back on though (because they are minor but factual points, so the type I love).

Palmer - your argument about refuse collection (as an example) being a closed shop etc. is simply not true. A lot of my friends worked the bins. Almost all of them have been moved on by Eastern European labour. How would this be possible in closed shops, legal exclusions and family affairs ? As the (badly misquoted and hashed up) joke goes - if an immigrant with no links, no qualifications and who doesn't speak the language can break into that sector, why cant women? (Yes, I get it may be to do with the sexism of the interviewer).

Argh - posted that before I had finished.

Just re-read and my other minor point was a misread so ignore it.

I do have a question though - people are challenging as to why we need a men's rights movement? Whilst I am not sure it is a rights movement that is needed (any more), that is a really helpful challenge - so my starter for ten is:

Is there an identifiable social ill (or ills)?
Does it attach specifically to a sub-group of society?
Can we identify causes and solutions to it?
Is it currently unrepresented by other movements?

But as a counter-question, why SHOULDN'T there be a men's rights movement? I mean from an idyllic we can stop it being taken over by knobs perspective.

Well society as it has stood historically and to a lesser extent today is a men's movement. It's setup by and for men. It's also somewhat worrying that men who feel maligned and put upon who create the counterculture MRA groups, seem to pratfall straight into the same pit of mysogyny as societies before.

The only solution I can see is a fair an equitable society that is issues based rather than gender based. That takes as a self evident truth any life is as important as the next.

I interpreted slugseatlettuces 7.42 post as being directed at me, apologies if that is not the case.

palmer yes - and i must have missed the one where you provided evidence of me saying "childbirth is not dangerous". Instead you responded with high handedness and smuggery.

Since you're so keen on evidence maybe you can provide some to support your ludicrous assertions that the reason women are not equally represented in the scaffolding industry is because that industry "actively" excludes women ? Can you provide an example of this active exclusion, remembering that anecdotal evidence is not allowed.

I work for a global bluechip company with 400,000+ employees, it's lead by a woman. That is both personal experience but is also a verifiable fact. I find it interesting that you appear to be implying that she would be unable to influence or shape the company and it's culture to a significant degree. Is that your belief ? Or do you accept that women are able to shape and influence many industries these days ?

Well society as it has stood historically and to a lesser extent today is a men's movement. It's setup by and for men. It's also somewhat worrying that men who feel maligned and put upon who create the counterculture MRA groups, seem to pratfall straight into the same pit of mysogyny as societies before.

Purely looking at my own experiences and lifetime, I would say that society is set up to ensure that power and privilege remains with a small minority of people. The fact that means the status quo is maintained as much as possible might also continue to perpetuate patriarchy. A very large number of companies I have worked for have had female chief executives at one time or another. In order for me to feel maligned, who is actively maligning me? Not a word I would use.

The only solution I can see is a fair an equitable society that is issues based rather than gender based. That takes as a self evident truth any life is as important as the next.

So does that mean an end to all "rights" movements? If so, then how do we achieve it. I tend to agree with the solution - just don't know how we would get there.

Well no not at all you have Human Rights which covers it all don't you think? Also I'm not saying you claim personally that your maligned, but MRAs do claim a feminist conspiracy. It is to that I am referring.

I'm also coming around to thinking the problem isn't just patriarchy. After all not all men are patriarchs, however misogyny can be present anywhere. Even a man at the bottom of the pile can hate women.