Suicide-a feminist issue?

[whenwomenruletheworld]

Tragically high male suicide rates have I think wrongly painted this as a men's issue. Aren't all the suicides men and women tragedies? And if the "man up/grow a pair" culture is in part responsible for men killing themselves in such numbers, when will society see feminism as the main opponent to the patriarchal bullshit which creates these gender stereotypes as the main hope for both men and women of dismantling them? It is disheartening to hear men talk disparagingly about feminism when my God the alternatives PUA nonsense MRA, UKIP, are so totally discredited. As someone posted on here when will there be a men's rights movement which embraces feminism as it's sister movement and which focuses on things which damage everyone?

I think a more productive avenue of discussion are workplace deaths and injury rather an theoretical wars. Are you more or less likely to be crippled or killed at work as a man or a woman?

Oh, confusing, a slug and a slugseatlettuce! I will try and be clearer.

"I meant that my wife nearly made me a man who died in childbirth the second time around. I missed a smilie. "

You are shitting me? Actual real women still die or come close to death, are disabled temporarily or permanently, have ongoing health issues, massive haemorrages, PND and more serious mental effects - many posters on this board have experienced these - and you want to make some flip point about your wife squeezing your hand too hard or shouting at you in labour?

I no longer think you are here in good faith, or else you are so hard of thinking that empathy and compassion mean nothing to you. What a shame.

I'd have no trouble including childbirth in the analysis, I also remember looking into dangerous professions awhile ago and iirc the most dangerous occupation is actually prostitution, although I don't think being considered part of the black economy means those numbers are tallied in usual statistics.

You are shitting me? Actual real women still die or come close to death, are disabled temporarily or permanently, have ongoing health issues, massive haemorrages, PND and more serious mental effects - many posters on this board have experienced these - and you want to make some flip point about your wife squeezing your hand too hard or shouting at you in labour? I no longer think you are here in good faith, or else you are so hard of thinking that empathy and compassion mean nothing to you. What a shame.

I absolutely never meant to cause any pain or suffering or upset. I actually did almost lose my wife (twice) and found humour a way of coping with it. I wish I had taken the PTSD counselling offered to me after the first one it was so horrific.

If anyone IS offended directly by what I said I can only, only apologise. I never meant it that way, and because of my own health issues I lack the social skills to use humour effectively and struggle to display empathy. For those reasons it didn't even occur to me that this might upset people. I am genuinely truly sorry.

Thank you for telling me this, and it is the second time I have done something stupid on these boards. I keep getting it wrong, but I am here genuinely to learn more and try to get a better, more diverse perspective. I am sure there will be people who use this as a reason to have me removed. If so, I understand but I can only appeal to your humane side. It is not easy not having the social skills other people do.

"I am sure there will be people who use this as a reason to have me removed. "

MN doesn't work like that. You are banned for trolling or persistent personal attacks, not for saying upsetting things. HTH.

HTH.

Sorry, what does HTH mean? I genuinely did screw up, and I did before too and was roundly slammed for it (won't talk about it as it becomes a thread about a thread and I have read up on the rules about that).

Therefore people will see this as a reason to get rid of me.

HTH = hope that helps

And again, posters cannot 'get rid of you' - they can decline to engage, of course.

I suppose Dervel is getting at the point that by and large "risky" manual tasks are generally performed by Men. We cannot say it's mens fault that birth is a risky natural process, or indeed that men ought to fix it for us so that it isn't.

We can say that society does not appear at the moment to expect women to "man" the barricades. This is a criticism i often see thrown at feminists - i.e. "I don't see you all making a fuss about the monicker 'binmen'" or "How many women do you see working in the roads dept."

I agree that men do in general take on more risky manual jobs, however, that does not mean there is a need for a Mens rights movement.

Death is death and undesirable no matter who it's happening to. If we can take steps to minimize risk and fatality be either in the workplace or childbearing we should. I don't think it's unrealistic to examine them side by side.

"We cannot say it's mens fault that birth is a risky natural process, or indeed that men ought to fix it for us so that it isn't."

Well, let's start with it being acknowledged at least!

And there are absolutely things society can do to reduce the impact of pregnancy and childbirth - allowing women a paid period off around the birth and protecting their job whilst on maternity leave is one.

Far fewer women in the uk die in childbirth now because of hygeine, c-sections and better care. But too many women still end up with other problems that could be avoided.

"agree that men do in general take on more risky manual jobs,"

Apart from prostitution, of course.

But women have campaigned to be allowed to be refuse workers etc. And unpaid care work is usually fine by women and is often manual and risky (bursting c section stitches hailing an older child or frail grandparent about, for example)

Done by not fine by

Hauling not hailing!

If we include prostitution we would then have to include any number of illegal and dangerous activity men engage in in order to make money. There is some truth that men have generally suffered long term ill health as a result of their occupation, of my grandparents all lived through the war, none of the women were disabled as a result of child birth, but both grand fathers were disabled as a result of their occupation, scaffolder, pit worker....not uncommon. Although as I said earlier, does not warrant a mens right movement.

Prostitution is not illegal in the UK.

"none of the women were disabled as a result of child birth, but both grand fathers were disabled as a result of their occupation, scaffolder, pit worker....not uncommon."

Anecdote is not data.

I don't know TBH who has historically died or been disabled more. But I agree with you that it doesn't warrant a men's rights movement - though the more men who get behind women lobbying for any military roles currently debarred, awho split childcare and housework 50:50 from the off, who encourage other men to access HCPs (women do more regularly owing to smears, contraception and babies, which may make it easier to ask for MH help), the more the patriarchy will crumble. There's no conflict there with feminist goals.

I'd agree framing in terms of "rights" seems a bit OTT, but there seems to be greater variance of privilege amongst men surely? i.e. Men are more likely to be CEOs Prime Ministers etc, but the fact more men than women find themselves homeless, in prison or indeed steering back to the original post commit suicide.

This is not said in anyway to minimize the negative effects this has on women in society as invariably it does, but as was pointed out above two women are murdered a week, but in that week something like 4 men will have been murdered. Agreed overwhelmingly at the hands of other men.

I worry there is a tendency to cherry pick the top pile men when we do any "as a class" analysis which minimizes and renders invisible men that do suffer.

I hear it often said that men cannot comprehend the lived experience of women. Fair enough I agree, but it then also must follow that women would equally fail to comprehend the lived experiences of men.

Dervel, of course there are variants within a class but is a homeless woman more or less privileged than a homeless man? It's possible fewer women are homeless because prostitution is more widespread - is that a privilege? Etc.

Of course there are always nuances. But I still haven't seen useby state an issue for men that isn't addressed in part or full by feminism/patriarchy smashing.

I agree we do not know each other's lived experiences, although the male experience is far more covered in films, books etc, so perhaps women have a greater chance than vice versa,

Unexp not useby, sorry!

I wholeheartedly agree about male experiences being over represented and made the default in the media. I have literary aspirations myself and a big part of why I am here is to make sure my female characters are written as richly and with as much depth as my male ones. Cos honestly stories that can't do both sexes justice are ultimately just disappointing and unsatisfying.

I can help you with that, Dervel:

1. Read a Tony Parsons book
2. Vow to do the exact opposite WRT female characters

There you go!

An interesting question might be:

Why are only men allowed to work down mines? Why is it mostly men who are bin men? Why is it mostly men who work in sewerage?

A probable answer is that those are some of the best paid jobs for people of a certain demographic. And, in the cases of bin men and sewerage workers, they have always been closed shops in terms of who is employed. Probably less so now, but they still tend to be family affairs.