Suicide-a feminist issue?

[whenwomenruletheworld]

Tragically high male suicide rates have I think wrongly painted this as a men's issue. Aren't all the suicides men and women tragedies? And if the "man up/grow a pair" culture is in part responsible for men killing themselves in such numbers, when will society see feminism as the main opponent to the patriarchal bullshit which creates these gender stereotypes as the main hope for both men and women of dismantling them? It is disheartening to hear men talk disparagingly about feminism when my God the alternatives PUA nonsense MRA, UKIP, are so totally discredited. As someone posted on here when will there be a men's rights movement which embraces feminism as it's sister movement and which focuses on things which damage everyone?

I think part of the problem with the two utterly pernicious phrases 'man up/grow a pair" is that they are tied up with what is considered sexually desirable by the opposite sex. How many times have I heard straight women say they "like their men to be men" or straight men also reinforce a traditional stereotype of a sexually attractive woman. I am not joking when I say this but I think such comments are lent additional false legitimacy when said in a regional e.g. Yorkshire accent. Because the majority of people of reproductive age want to act or come across as desirable to the opposite sex even of they are already in a relationship, they allow themselves to fit into the straitjacket of these emotions. The media adds fuel to this fire with unrealistic depictions of female pulchritude and male stoicism. One of the ways a man can seem safely masculine is to deride weakness or effeminacy in others so many reach for this. Because of the brilliant work of feminism and perhaps women's less favourable starting point women now have a far wider range of accepted ways of being than men who remain trapped in a straitjacket constructed by patriarchy to for the men at the very top. It is not CEOs or domestic abuser men mostly killing themselves it is ordinary men beneath them who suffer, as do albeit differently from women, from the whole utterly pathetic construct. The sooner feminism and humanity demolish this awful edifice the sooner men and women will be able to live and love properly.

I think the title should probably read 'male suicide' rather than just 'suicide'.

Palmer, statements like 'women don't...' are generalising.

Do you mean 'statistically, many women don't...'?

Sorry but I really hate to rad generalisations about women or men.

*read

Well said myfirstandonly!

I think it pays to understand the causes for male suicide and how they differ from causes for female suicide (and the statistics show that they do). Patriarchy hurts everyone, of all sexes, as surely as matriarchy would too, I believe. Whether this is a feminist issue or a meninist issue is a little beside the point. What we need to be asking is this - men are 4 times more likely to kill themselves than women. Do we, as a society think that is a problem? What are we, as a society, going to do about that?

There are clear evidence-based responses that can be taken - not least investing more money in mental health services directly aimed at men. However, in the current climate that would be paid for by removing funds from elsewhere. Which price are we willing to pay?

Also, unashamed plug for one of my blogs looking at this issue. unexpectedsocialist.blogspot.com/2015/11/every-day-is-mens-day.html I think, if I have got the link to work. Not the brightest, and usually rely on my wife to do techie things for me.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, patriarchs are by definition men, but men aren't by definition all patriarchs. Some of this "men as a class" privilege is only really theoretical for many many men.

This suicide business may be demonstrative of some of this, but correlation does prove causation. As has been pointed out up thread women make more attempts, men succeed in killing themselves more frequently.

How else do suicide statistics break down? Across cultural, racial and economic lines?

Dervel A good starting point for across gender AND age group www.samaritans.org/about-us/our-research/facts-and-figures-about-suicide

Links to social class / poverty www.nhs.uk/news/2015/02February/Pages/Unemployment-linked-to-increased-risk-of-suicide.aspx

Can't find anything "grabbable" on ethnicity / religion for the UK.

I am assuming you are looking UK centric there.

These are all important too, but what has been shown by the research performed is that many men attempt suicide as a direct result of being men, rather than it being other factors.

"many men attempt suicide as a direct result of being men"

Do you have a link to the research, and is the same not true of women?

I mean, the idea is that men are more likely to attempt suicide because not seeking help for mental health problems is considered to be a direct result of being a man, right? But if many women who attempt suicide are under significant pressure as caregivers is that also considered to be attempting suicide as a direct result of being a woman?

I might be completely wrong, but I do wonder if the pressure on men to pull themselves together when faced with mental health problems is similar to the pressure on women to put up and shut up with being responsible for everyone else's happiness even to the detriment of their own.

Can't link to some of the research because of the way my works computer is locked down JessicasRabbit. But there is some basic stuff on www.thecalmzone.net/news-room/#/pressreleases/historic-parliamentary-debate-on-male-suicide-secured-on-international-men-s-day-1252872 .

In terms of causes of women's suicide, I am sure you can google that as successfully as I can. But you could start here www.mentalhealth.org.uk/publications/fundamental-facts-2007/

From an initial reading of this though, it appears that womens mental health issues cross a much wider range (although again, that could be due to under-reporting amongst men). I would therefore very weakly suggest that would mean a wider range of reasons for depression leading to suicide.

The "as a direct result of being men" remark is directly related to men being surveyed saying they didn't report it or mention it to anyone for fear of being seen as weak, men don't talk about this sort of thing etc. type answers.

I don't think any movement that celebrates 'male tears' is likely to be supportive of the liberalisation of male emotion.

To misquote Eric Morecambe, "I understand all of those words, though not necessarily in the right order". Could you explain what you mean MephistophelesApprentice because you have me beaten.

Google is your friend.

But allow me to introduce you to the world of ironic misandry, where a triumph of patriarchal manipulation managed to persuade feminism to unironically embrace it's own stereotypes and eliminate the idea it could be of any benefit to men.

www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/08/08/ironic_misandry_why_feminists_joke_about_drinking_male_tears_and_banning.html

Personally, I think that the idea that men are somehow 'broken' because they do not express emotional behaviour in the same manner is as absurd as suggesting women are broken for not expressing competitiveness in the same manner as men.

Personally, I think that the idea that men are somehow 'broken' because they do not express emotional behaviour in the same manner is as absurd as suggesting women are broken for not expressing competitiveness in the same manner as men.

I am not sure that is an argument put forward. In fact, I think most of the thinking on this is around outcomes and processes rather than labels.

i.e. It is shown that more men kill themselves, and if we implement more funding to target mental health services towards men we can reduce this.

As an aside - I do believe there IS misandry (non-ironic) within some parts of the feminist movement. But then I also acknowledge that there are idiots who threaten rape within the mens rights movements.

Yes Meph, because we all literally bathe in male tears... and I don't think that article says what you think it does either.

PalmerViolet I am still a little unclear on what points Meph__tice was trying to make.

Therefore, playing authors advocate I assume the point is that some feminists are claiming the word misandrist for all feminists to remove that word from the lexicon of debate. Thereby not only weakening it's power when used incorrectly but with the (hidden) intentional consequence of removing it when it IS the correct term to use for someone.

But I am not entirely clear, and am sure that Meph__tice will be along to defend themselves.

To be honest, Unexpectedsocialist, you nailed it.

One of the major themes of my education (and the one that got me most enthralled with social justice) was the examination of how even in the most theoretically benign writings the language used could be (and often was) subtly discriminatory; this could (and does) have a profound, ongoing effect on society. We covered the same ground in Art, History, Sociology and English literature and it was revealing of how deconstructing language or imagery could reveal sexist or racist bias, deliberate or unconscious, and how important it was to critically examine any narrative with which we were presented. Permitting such prejudice to flourish, unseen and unaddressed, rapidly produces attitudes that can gravely disadvantage minorities or the vulnerable.

The issues around suicide, male in this case, are being used in efforts to produce a narrative of 'toxic masculinity' - the idea that mens socialisation is harmful to themselves and women. Without a doubt there are circumstances where this is true. However, at the same time, it is clear that what could potentially be innate differences in emotional behaviour (and lets face it, hormonal differences between individuals do usually lead to noticeable behavioural differences) are being coopted to reinforce the idea that men are flawed compared to women (men = base & bestial, women = pure & numinous*); a profoundly Edwardian idea that I believe highlights the regressive and conservative elements of feminism.

This being the case, I would say that I do not trust feminism to act in mens best interests, nor would I expect or demand that it do so. It's a movement for women, not for men.

And no, PalmerViolet I do not believe the feminists literally bathe in male tears. That coy disingenuousness does your beliefs a disservice.

*so long as they abide by imposed cultural standards.

I suppose you might be right there Unexpected with a couple of caveats.

Misandry is used by feminists as an in joke, because it's not a real thing. No matter how much a certain type of man would like it to be one.

The idea that men are broken isn't correct. It's masculinity and it's insistence on conforming to a singular way of being and expressing oneself that is broken.

And Meph, coy disingenuousness isn't my thing, no matter how much you might wish to believe it is. Or wish to use that descriptor in order to shut me up. Won't work. Try again.

One big joke then - thought so.

I suppose you might be right there Unexpected with a couple of caveats.

Misandry is used by feminists as an in joke, because it's not a real thing. No matter how much a certain type of man would like it to be one.

I am afraid PalmerViolet, you are going to struggle quite a bit with that one. To claim that "Misandry ... it's not a real thing" is completely false. If you can claim that - and support it by "and any evidence of it is simply a mis-understood feminist joke", then I can do the same with misogyny.

In fact, I would argue that I could trawl the boards on this very site and find examples of both quite easily. Denying the existence of something because you don't want it to exist seems beneath someone who until this point appeared thoughtful in their postings.

The issues around suicide, male in this case, are being used in efforts to produce a narrative of 'toxic masculinity' - the idea that mens socialisation is harmful to themselves and women. Without a doubt there are circumstances where this is true. However, at the same time, it is clear that what could potentially be innate differences in emotional behaviour (and lets face it, hormonal differences between individuals do usually lead to noticeable behavioural differences) are being coopted to reinforce the idea that men are flawed compared to women (men = base & bestial, women = pure & numinous); a profoundly Edwardian idea that I believe highlights the regressive and conservative elements of feminism.*

Meph - its interesting, but I certainly don't read the idea of "toxic masculinity" as being particularly important. I am fairly sure it is not one that comes from CALM either. More, it is that men feel society has that expectation of their behaviours and it is breaking that down.

Neither do I accept that these campaigns are in anyway trying to push a negative stereotype of men.

I do agree with your final point - however, for the feminist movement to continue to move forward, and therefore the meninist movement too, these strands MUST recognise that it is actually better to have a single movement - with the goals of reducing inequalities in our outcomes within society that are based upon gender differences. This must also incorporate questions of both Trans and Sis communities too. And any such movement should NOT be based on treating everybody the same irrespective, rather should aim to provide everybody with similar life chances, taking into account any fundamental differences required in approach.

On that counting male suicide SHOULD be a feminist issue - if only to move that movement in that direction.