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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

It starts so young

20 replies

BogusCatAndThePunk · 25/12/2015 09:18

TAAT, I'll be honest.
I think it's in AIBU.

A little girl who may have ASD (this is not the point) who's Dad thinks she should be punished for reacting to not wanting to kiss him.
In the interests of full disclosure he tried to kiss her after been told/shown No and she hit him.

We were considered odd that as children were never 'made to kiss/hug relatives and we've carried that on.

But I noticed then and now it was ALWAYS the girls that were told off etc for not wanting to hug/kiss.

We're never allowed ownership over our own bodies.

(Sorry feeling very introspective, new niece, I wonder what world she'll have to live in)

OP posts:

PurpleDaisies · 25/12/2015 09:21

I agree that children shouldn't be forced to hug abs kiss relatives they don't want to. I don't agree that it's always girls though.

VestalVirgin · 25/12/2015 10:45

I'm shocked. He's her dad, he should make her feel safe. The random stupid relative is expected, but to do this to one's own daughter ... Oo

It's grooming for date rape. Rapists test boundaries, and they will go after girls who don't react to being kissed without invitation.

Teaching girls to set boundaries is sort of a "make sure he rapes the other girl" defense, I am aware, but if all women fought back the rapists wouldn't get to stay out of jail because "she didn't fight back" or some nonsense.

AgeingArtemis · 25/12/2015 17:43

Yes, I saw this thread and was a bit shocked as well.

I never a very touchy feely child but I "improved" as I will now allow people to hug/kiss me if I'm in the right mood.

My main bugbear is the way my dad wants to hug me when I'm upset.
I can see it from his point of view of course, he's just trying to be nice to his child but when I am feeling sad and vulnerable the LAST thing I want is someone to invade my personal space.

Unfortunately refusing the hug or trying to explain have result in passive-aggressive "disappointment" in raising such a selfish child

AgeingArtemis · 25/12/2015 17:45

I haven't personally noticed any gender discrepancy in my family but I am prepared to believe it exists.

Ooh, come to think of it now I just typed that I realised that while all children are expected to hug and kiss once teenagers boys are not expected to but girls are

MsMermaid · 25/12/2015 17:56

I don't hug or kiss, I've never been made to or expected to. Neither of my dds are ever forced to hug or kiss either, although that took some uncharacteristic forcefulness from me to stop the in laws from making dd2 kiss them (they've never tried with dd1 because she was 7 by the time they met her)

I hate seeing kids being made to kiss relatives, it does set them up with unhealthy boundaries.

patterkiller · 25/12/2015 18:49

My dcs were always taught, kisses are for giving not for taking.

VestalVirgin · 25/12/2015 18:51

I can see it from his point of view of course, he's just trying to be nice to his child but when I am feeling sad and vulnerable the LAST thing I want is someone to invade my personal space.

I can see how this would take some getting used to, as the intuitive reaction is to hug someone who is sad, but people really should make the effort.
At least with one's own children, it isn't so much of an effort to learn what they like and don't like. With strangers it can be a bit difficult, but I don't usually hug strangers. Also, you can always ask.
(I really like that, in feminist internet spaces, there's "hugs if you want them" if someone is upset. I don't think many people have a problem with symbolic internet hugging, but it helps reinforce respect for boundaries)

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/12/2015 19:27

I like this about consent in children. Really good stuff.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 25/12/2015 19:55

The problem, to me, is the concept of "my child" and parents who don't understand "my child" means "a person with whom I share certain genetic material and/or for whose emotional and physical welbeing I have a legal and moral responsibility for" rather than "my child to do with as I please"

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 25/12/2015 19:57

A little girl who may have ASD (this is not the point)

Agreed. It is so not the point of what is wrong with the father's behaviour.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 25/12/2015 20:00

Girls are socialised to be more amenable though. To fit in with other's expectations, whereas the 'boys will be boys' thing extends to hugs and kisses... cue oh! So funny things about boys being made to kiss whiskery grannies and being paid £20 for being affectionate to over bearing older female relatives.

I'd agree that it becomes more gendered as children get older. Teenage boys are not generally expected to be as demonstrative as their female counterparts.

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/12/2015 20:32

I think how the message is installed is about the same. The way that it is expressed is entirely different. Give a male child and a female child the message, "if someone bigger in a position of authority wants affection, they get it", it's going to play out very differently when one sex gets to be bigger and more powerful in society.

VestalVirgin · 25/12/2015 20:50

@MrsTerry: Absolutely.

I also think it is creepy that some people say the child should be taught to react "appropriately". She already told him no, what else can she do?

When I was subjected to a sexual assault that was pretty much exactly what this girl got, only that the man actually managed to kiss me, I only said something about it being entirely inappropriate.

I WISH I had slapped the asshole. He fully deserved it, and then some.

If my (hypothetical) daughter slapped a man for trying to kiss her, I'd say "well done" and give her a cookie.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 25/12/2015 21:02

True MrsT

Which along with the girls must be polite and nice all the time message is a recipe for disaster.

CwtchMeQuick · 25/12/2015 21:12

While I agree children shouldn't be forced into physical contact they do not want, it's not been my experience that there's a discrepancy between genders.
DS is 3.5, I used to work in a care home and DS was just as likely as any little girls visiting to get 'just come and give me a kiss' 'give us a cuddle' etc. I have never let him be rude or ignore people, but he's never been made to cuddle or kiss anyone despite some people being quite insistent. DS knows he can say goodbye to people as he sees fit, whether this be verbal, a high five or a kiss.

I read the start of the thread you're referring to and I don't think the girl was in the wrong for reacting how she did. I suppose it must be sad for the father that his Dd doesn't want that contact with him, but as her parent he needs to put her needs before his own. And of course he needs to teach his Dd that it is perfectly acceptable to say no and protect herself if she is uncomfortable.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 26/12/2015 00:02

I only have a son but I would agree this isn't a sex specific things at that age.

LittleMissChatter · 27/12/2015 10:31

I have all girls and they never have to hug anyone. I will hug someone in very rare circumstances, and I don't think anyone in my family have ever hugged each other. It literally repulses me having to hug people.

AgeingArtemis · 27/12/2015 22:46

This is about a different thread but still related (I think)

There was a woman who thought that her husband had bought her very expensive earrings when they'd agreed to only buy small gifts for one another. She was wondering whether to panic buy him an expensive gift to even things up.
So many posters on that thread were telling her not to worry, she can "pay him back" with a blowjob

It is likely that I am completely over-reacting, as I am not sexually active myself, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. Am I being naive in thinking sex shouldn't be done as a "repayment" or duty but out of genuine enjoyment?
Absolutely not suggesting the dh was wanting or expecting sex due to his gift (wasn't actually his but long story) but posters made it seem like the done thing is to thank your husband with sex whenever he is particularly nice to you.

MsMermaid · 28/12/2015 09:33

I agree Artemis. I always find it strange when that crops up, people say it IRL. It doesn't work like that in my house, because we both think exactly the same as you, sex should be because both people want it.

Similarly, a friend of mine had an accident earlier in the year. She was in hospital for 2 weeks and told not to do anything strenuous (including sex) for another 6weeks. She was worried about her husband, he really suffered, not having sex for 8weeks. It seemed like an odd thing for her to be worrying about at the time, considering that she'd been seriously injured and just walking was difficult. I would have understood more if she'd been worrying about him not coping with all the housework and childcare while she couldn't do any of it, but she didn't worry about that at all, just that he couldn't have sex.

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 28/12/2015 23:41

I do say about "paying with a blowjob" but i am not being serious it is only ever a joke, so always presume other people are joking as well, i haven't seen the other thread, could they be joining in a big society wide joke?

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