Can we have a general Trans thread?

[Brugmansia]

Sorry for another trans thread and I feel this is a bit of an imposition given I don't post really.

Anyway reading FWR over the past few months has re-radicalised me. I've been reading lots here and wider.

Anyway just now been watching TV and there's been some stuff that's given me the rage but didn't seem to fit in existing threads or it's own thread.

Anyway thing that gave me the rage.
On BBC3 program on transgemder teen's the doctor just said "creating a vagina". Are doctors redefining vagina as pocket rather than a passage? Makes me want to screem.

Also Sarah Ditum being no platformed.

I thought the woman from the New Statesman did a good job on Newsnight. She just about managed to get the key issues for women across without being rude or unkind in anyway. Unfortunately, just as things were coming clear, the segment ran out of time.

If Italy can build a separate prison for TW then I'm sure we could do the same

If your numbers are correct (Oneflew) it might be more of a challenge with respect to HCPs. However I am going to take a wild guess here that the numbers are going to be lower.

How many of us know a TW or TM personally? Actually know one, their story, the pain they might have gone through, the anguish, pain and doubt of their parents?

True Cote - I was going for a guesstimate rather than an informed guess I suppose, although it does highlight the potential numbers. I think Plonit probably is closer.

Again I'd raise the point that it doesn't need to be a large number of people for the impact on female patients to be potentially large. Particularly when you think of how many patients a HCP sees in a day and then extrapolate out over a working year.

How much "pain" does anyone known anyone else goes through? I don't want anyone to be in pain. I don't mind listening to half an hour of someone else talking of their pain in every twenty hours we are together. More than that go speak of your pain to your therapist, life is too short.

I know a few. Homeless work means I know more than the norm, both staff and clients. I would say three TM (one of whom transitioned back to female and one of whom identifies as trans but doesn't mind female pronouns etc.) and a few TW clients. One TW acquaintance who is a FB friend really only now.

I have spoken at length with only one of them about gender and sex. Very reasonable, intelligent and questioning. Of course, they were socialized female. I'm having cocktails in Feb with them so I will raise this (possibly, I'd really rather talk about work gossip).

Cote. I respectfully disagree. It was not a comparison but an alternative example. I can use another. A business I used to work for had some very, very important clients who were Hasidic Jews (afaik). They made a request to be served by only male staff on a particular day (apologies if I have misrepresented some of the details). The request was politely declined by my employer.

Re definition of "sex" - that's my whole point. It ends up being a circular definition.

The thing I say is a thing is the thing I say it is.

Slow trans activists are not campaigning for separate facilities for trans prisoners (as in Italy) but housing in the men's or women's estate according to declared gender identity. What you are proposing is segregation, which many trans activists regard as transphobic.

I don't believe that transwomen would accept being placed in only one prison, specifically for transwomen. As far as I'm aware it's not considered ideal to house prisoners miles away from family. More importantly, if a prisoner is in possession of a valid gender certificate then in the eyes of the law they are a woman and must be housed in the women's prison estate. If you can get a gender certificate by self declaration with no requirement for any actual steps towards living as the opposite sex, then essentially any man can be housed in the women's prison estate, legally.

You know, my worry here isn't about specific transwomen at all - I'm sure that the vast majority of non autogynephilic transwomen are lovely people just trying to get along in life. I believe we should find ways that we can support them to be successful in work, feel comfortable using public toilets, be protected if they receive a prison sentence, whatever.

BUT and it's a BIG BUT we should not do this by shifting the problem of transwomen onto women. We should not be telling women to budge up and give up some of their hard won safe spaces to accommodate biologically male people.

So we don't give a women's scholarship to a man who likes to wear dresses on Tuesdays, we create unisex cubicles rather than expecting women to change with transwomen at varying degrees of transition, we keep non-surgical (at the very least) transwomen prisoners in safe spaces within MEN'S prisons. We definitely do not, ever, expect women in women's refuges to share living spaces with men who still have intact fucking penises. Oh and while we're at it, we need to create a new category for recording crime so that transwomen crimes don't get recorded as female violence ffs.

And I imagine that any transwoman HCP in the NHS would never want to violate the informed consent of a patient, but if it ever arose, the rights of the patient to CHOOSE a female doctor for a smear etc should always be protected.

The definition of biological sex isn't circular. It doesn't seem to be an issue for scientists/doctors etc. I can find many clear definitions online with a simple search, I'm sure you can do the same.

Sex is a medical definition - if the idea of sexual dimorphism in humans is confusing to you then there's a very good revision guide for GCSE Biology on the BBC website.

I'm interested in yours Cote.

An "absolute" definition, OneFlew? Outside of mathematics there are very few absolute definitions. Thats why I am interested Cote's.

CultureSucks it doesn't seem to be a problem for scientists / doctors

Are you sure?

Are you a scientist?

I thought the woman from the New Statesman did a good job on Newsnight. She just about managed to get the key issues for women across without being rude or unkind in anyway. Unfortunately, just as things were coming clear, the segment ran out of time

She is Sarah Ditum. I don't know who the other person was. I would have liked Sarah Ditum to ask them , if they are happy to refuse to specify whether they are male or female on a passport, should they be convicted of an offence carrying a custodial sentence if they will continue to do so. From their physical appearance I suspect they might decide they are female.

No Slow, are you? You're suggesting that in humans, sex is not possible to define and that any attempts to do so are circular, am I right? So, essentially meaningless?

3G sex (Genetic/Gonadal/Genital) is close to 100% dimorphic and close to 100% matching. Obviously there are exceptions (which generally go under the term 'intersex', though that actually describes a variety of different circumstances - some of which are genuinely 'inter' (between), some are 'non-matching').

Slow do you know any livestock farmers?

Lass I'm now having visions of someone trying to persuade a farmer to keep his bull in with the cows because it's totally transphobic to segregate them

CultureSucks
Yes. Or was before needing to go into work that pays better.

Re definitions - not meaningless, just far more nuanced than might first appear in nearly all branches of science (other than mathematics) .

Even Geography...ask any geographer to define "continent" . The only true answer is "It kinda sorta depends and each one is different."

When I was younger and thinking I might like to have a relationship that may result in kids, I had literally no idea who might be a good choice of partner. I had to ask everyone I met if they were a man or a woman so I could, as a heterosexual woman, find a man to have a relationship with. It was actually impossible to tell by looking at anyone whether they were a man or a woman.

Lass / OneFlew
I do know some livestock farmers. But as a Hindu, I am mortally offended that you are comparing my points to the immoral and disgusting practice of beef farming.

I hope your next reincarnation will teach you both a karmic lesson you won't forget in a while!

Good NIGHT. ..

So... nuanced, but not meaningless. That's not a problem then is it.

Would you say that a person born male (as defined by the nuanced definition of sex you refer to) actually becomes a woman (as defined by the nuanced definition of sex you refer to) by dint of a certificate and no other changes?

Flora
You won't have any problem then when specifying which HCP treats you.

The definitions of 'male' and 'female' are fixed, and not open to interpretation or discussion